I understand but in sim if I'm in mig29smt or su27 radar missiles are useless cos f16 just hug the deck with radar off then aim 9 when in range from rwr, this way both teams will benefit
This would be an ok change if there weren't 16 other planes with missiles to worry about, a missile launch should not always guarantee a kill and going low shouldn't be the only way to defeat it
So i understand your fear, hwoevee this is where what RB players should've been doing is requesting the same AF and spawn layout of SB. Sim battle this doesnt happen...at all. All aircrafts are more spread out because of multiple AF that allow players to come from multiple pathways to the battle, allowing its own unique kind of battle rather than the RB's very simplistic 1 AF spawn that gathers the entire team in one area barely out if Fox-3 range that kind of won't allow climbing unless you circle the AF. This change alone would fox multiple issues in RB
I just cant fathom the amount of sweats who think that the real issue is 16v16 format or the realism of the game itself. Modern weapons such as the fox 3s and the missiles we have in the game right now are made to be used in very specific situations at long ranges when you know that the enemy is exactly in your missile's sights and when you have a good amount of certainty that they do not see you. Chances of avoiding these missiles in real life are incredibly hard, just as they are in game. Floor hugging isn't fun? So what is, making floor hugging be more intense? Making every match last 5 minutes? The only other option is having everyone do BVR, fire off missiles and those who were lucky enough to dodge and maybe even get a kill get to rtb and repeat, how engaging. Even if you have old 12v12 formats, nothing would change, maybe the game will last a few more or a few less minutes, the game needs some exaggeration in these mechanics to make a dogfight even remotely viable, and the best way so far to do it is to separate those willing to participate in a dogfight from those who want a pure BVR setting with things like multipathing. I am honestly amazed at how blind yet vocal a minority of this game's community is. Removing multipathing from the game will certainly make top tier air much more sensitive to power-creep and will be way less enjoyable for stock/new/grinding players. You have my support Lee.
Honestly, I think that the multipathing change, might encourage proper BVR strategy rather than just deck hugging to the enemy, so I really don't think it's a terrible change, just a slight nuisance to the arcade nature of the game.
It will enhanced gameplay because people will have to get good. The problem is only 16v16, you really just sound whiny and like you never mastered using fox 1’s if you think notching is hard even with ample time
I think we will have to wait and see. I don't care for hugging the ground and so I don't abuse multipathing anyway. But i think the main issue is the 16v16. But I really think they need to remove team killing in AirRB. IR missiles are bad enough, but with 10+ fox-3 missiles in the air. Things will get rough with people firing them into the fur ball.
Due note general lee, your comment about "multipathing is a real thing" while talking about these missiles is mostly false. Once IM seekers became common place IRL multipathing as a whole became more of a rare occasion then something that was common place with missiles like the Aim7E sparrow. Just about every missile from the Aim7m sparrow and up should mostly negate multipathing's effects. While there is a chance for it too happen or for the targeted plane to jerk around at low alt and force the missile into the ground it is a rare occurance. DCS gets this down more accuratly. The only reason i approach the argument with this "realism" is because there is a loud majority of the pro multipathing -meta goers that this in-game example is realistic.
I definetly get ur point, but i think its mainly an issue of team sizes. If they dont decrease team sizes, we'll probably see a split in gameplay, those that rush in for quick kills and those that stay behind. Also, quick thought. How does dcs multipmayer handle this? There are massive games with even better missiles over there. Might me useful to have look on how they handle it.
I feel like everyone explaining different ways you can dodge radar missiles didnt even watch the video and missed the point. Personally i wouldn't mind the MP change if the game allowed it to be balanced, but in the current state of the game it wont be. First of all, the player count especially on smaller maps makes dodging radar missiles without MP nearly impossible. Imagine city or the small Afghanistan map, where within a minute of the game starting, both teams are already within 10km of each other with 16 players each. Second of all this is gonna be so awful for planes with lower countermeasure amounts, people will need to bring chaff once again, but only having 30 of each will most definitely not be enough with the playercount. Not to mention irccm missiles still being around, without running something like flare reinforced will make flaring those all the more difficult. Third, BR compression will be so awful, especially with stock planes. Im just imagining trying to upgrade my stock mig29 with like 2 basic IR missiles and standard flares, going against fox3 missiles. I mean thats genuinely near uncounterable on certain maps. I would also argue that the awful spotting range will contribute to this not being a good change. Despite the name air rb isnt meant to be super realistic in its current state, you can literally fly your plane with your mouse for godsake. I dont care if they did this in simulator, but i really hope they dont do this in RB.
STOP CRYING BECAUSE YOU SUCK!!! Oh WooOOOW YOU NOW HAVE TO USE SKILL TO FLY OH noooOOoo Make multi pathing 30m so you noob tree huggers get destroyed and delete the game. Good riddance
THIS is long overdue. Gaijin has now fully bred a species of people who only know how to fly under 100m in a straight line and nothing else. They scream in agony at the slight thought of using mountains or hills to obscure missiles, notching, going cold, properly defending missiles radar missiles and treating radar missiles like any sort of threat that needs your focus or any thought. They will now either have to learn the game like everyone else did instaed of just buying into missiles with no skill, leave and go play an actual arcade game like Ace Combat or at least focus, and put the minimum of a passing thought in driving a radar missile into the terrain.
Most these people celebrating this change will regret it: if you think "everyone hugging the deck is no skill" then wait until you see the entire 16v16 lobby fire 8 ARH missiles and all turn cold immediately to land and reload. Top tier is about to become a Napoleonic infantry shootout ;)
100m multi path was brain dead. If RB does not break at a point then Gaijin wont do anything to fix gameplay. Top tier gameplay is so brain dead and awful there needs to be something. Reducing players wont fix it btw, and its not a start either.
I just want to say thank you for this video... I absolutely agree, one more thing I want to add is that this will mainly make stock grinding (which was already bad) near impossible, what you said about defensive flying is exactly what a stock grinder suffers the most and now it'll be 5x to 10x worse, it literally forces you to pay your way into at least a SARH on top tier to be able to farm something. For me War Thunder is a simcade game, and people are wanting to transform it into DCS, they should go play that instead (or start to invest in being a real fighter pilot to begin with).
Multipath is just a bullshit missile shield that allows players to crutch into BFM. It absolutely kills any level of BVR gameplay. It means planes with bad flight models are guaranteed to be bad planes no matter the BR. Have fun F-4F ICE. Dogfights should be *rare* in top tier. Yes, 16v16 needs to be either removed or made entirely optional to participate in. But this current bullshit missile shield/furball meta coupled with pointless or nonexistent objectives is disgusting and untouchable. Matches end in less than 5 minutes 9/10 times. It makes ground RB look like a masterpiece by comparison. Anything is better than this.
As a controller for player I find it pretty hard to notch so I just fly low the whole time or I turn around and pop a bunch of chaff. The positive side of this to me is to teach to notch or try too. The negative side is what if I can’t end up notching that is just my opinion
While you have some valid concerns, I think your view of what's going to come is a bit pessimistic. I feel like multipathing is abused pretty harshly right now, and reigning it in a bit is exactly what the doctor ordered. That being said, Gaijin needs to figure out what to do about the 16v16 issue we have. 16v16 might be fine for EC maps (IF THEY ADD MORE FUCKING OBJECTIVES TO SPREAD PEOPLE OUT), but anything smaller than that needs (NEEDS) less people. City with 32 planes with 6+ missiles each is.... just no.... Some ideas: Small maps should be 4v4 - 6v6, a bit more intimate. Allow us to utilize Element/Wing tactics. 1 Life, winner takes all. A true Air TDM Medium sized maps (their "fix" for people not liking how big EC is, but not liking how small the old maps are) should be our 8v8 - 10v10 modes. Enough people that there's still a decent amount of action, but not so many that the air feels crowded, give us maybe a respawn or two, and some objectives aside from "Kill enemy or bomb base" Large (EC Maps) should be the 12v12 - 14v14 modes, big operations where we have the space to have a large-scale air battle. Varied objectives, multiple respawns, let Air RB players use their goddamn backups! And hear me out, let's make some HUGE maps: I think the biggest maps are like 64km², why not double that? 16v16, Sim or Ground RB-style respawns, tons of objectives, from bases, AI planes, ground targets, pinpoint airstrikes, large bomber flights, maybe even some boss-style mechanic like a carrier fleet or airbase assault. Improved AI that are actually a threat to you or your defense objectives. The problem isn't the mechanics of air battles, it's maps and modes that we've had for 10 years with hardly any improvements
Oh it's going to be so much fun. I'm just going to camp over top of my own airfield and behind it and then if a missile's coming at me I'll just j out and keep repeating until the enemy team quits
Are they adding the PL 12s for the J 8F? They said they would when the aircraft was initially added and it would make sense as the thing doesn't have very good flight performance while its the same BR as the F 14A and only .3 from the Mig 29A and the earlier F 16s
I'm happy they nerfed multi-pathing multi-pathing is extremely unrealistic I play More DCS than Warthunder because I like realistic results people on the ground flying 70 feet should not avoid a missile if you want to dodge a missile gain the skill to do it notch and defend with Chaff if you cant gain the skills to defeat missiles without using multi-pathing BS then your not a good pilot which is why 98% of people who player warthunder would never play DCS because its too realistic for them and has zero Bias in it and uses Real world data to make the sim as close to realistic as possible if your flying a Mig-29 against a F15C im gonna stomp you in the ground multi-pathing has destroyed Radar missiles and the radar on aircraft why should it War has nothing to do with balanced if im the USA and a building needs a 500lb bomb to take out im not going to use 500lbs im going to use 2000lbs war isnt fair warthunder should be fair either if your at top tier you should know how to notch a missile and chaff if you dont you will learn people think they are good pilots in warthunder when they hug the ground to avoid missiles well hugging the ground is a OLD meta that needs to be DEAD it is stupid now reducing the lobby to 6v6 will change everything you could remove multi-pathing and everything will be fine 16v16 isnt a issue but if you get on a small map then its a massive issue but 16v16 on Large maps its very fun because I get to use my Radar for what it was made for
Why are we talking about a realistic change... for a realistic gamemode? It is still near double than reality. And no, all missiles were not equal ... they were useless just because someone flew low. What's the point of adding missiles (or anything for that matter) if it's going to be useless from the get go. To be honest it was... unrealistic , not realistic. Anyway... the real problem that needs analysis and solution and of course needs to go... is the 16v 16. In everything above 9,3 ... it just shouldn't be. They should have changed it a long time ago. That's a topic of discussion , not if realistic getting... realistic is good or bad. How we can push them understand that we should play 8v8 in those tiers and maps... not 16v16? That's the real problem...
All these people are saying it takes skill to turn around. BVR is just an endless series of pressing buttons and turning until you're out of missiles. The people with skill are the people who will dodge 11 R-73s and 9Ms, while staying close enough to the ground to not die to radar missiles. Playing a 1v1 or 1v2 is extremely hard for all players involved when if they're 100 meters up they all get instantly slammed by AMRAAMs and R-77s. This won't add any skill. It'll just be the same as the current Fox 2 meta, but higher up. The only way to change the meta would be to give sim maps with multiple spawn points, objectives that can actually win the game instead of just ground pounding or elimination, and reducing the max players in a match to 6v6.
honesly i hope we all get so frustraded that we stop playing top tier and hopefully theyll bring in a new game mode to incenstize players to return to top tier lol
i fink the 16vs16 problem kinda ties in together with the ground hugging meta. Noone wants to be dodging 4 radar missiles at the same time so ofc youll want to hug the ground to dodge or prevent the launch. Bringing down the player count would actually allow some breathing room and people would actually try flying high when you know you wont be the only one targeted by the whole team.
all imma say is that this is what happens when you take aircraft and systems that weren't meant for these kinds of situations and apply them to these kinds of situations. Modern air combat doesn't fit WT's RB gameplay style nearly as well as I think the general community might think, and as people want the game to be more and more realistic, it creates things that people don't like.
I don't know exactly what would be best but I think its good to test it. The flying low furball is getting annoying. My theory is that if we lower the player count and nerf multipathing, also combined with the buff to chaff, maybe it will give people a reason to climb now and use chaff and notching? Could be wrong and maybe it will be awful
Personally I get the feeling that reliable methods to survive multipath resistant fox3 spam will be developed. The current meta with furball irccm spam seemed impossible to survive at first. But the good players figured it out. Hell if anything, putting it like that actually makes the current meta sound harder to survive than this. Time will tell.
I agree with almost every point mentioned here, but i actually support this change as it it points out all the current flaws in air rb, and the solutions to both multipath and the other problems mostly align, so im betting on this to eventually fix air rb
Ew no. Fuck you and fuck multipathing. If you want stupid furballs stick to props. Modern air combat irl isnt a constant furball. This constant deck hugging bullshit needs to go. Takes no skill to fly low. Very L take.
