A look at why the FBI went to .40 cal only to move back to 9mm... links to Modern .40, Pt. 2 • 9mm vs .40 Windshield ... pt.3 • 9mm vs .40 vs 10mm vs ... 9mm 115gr JHP 9mm 115gr JHP +p+ 9mm 147gr HST vs .40 180gr Nosler JHP
@deucedeuce22oz Main reason they switched is more LEOs can hit their intended target more times with 9mm than with the others. Their definition of "more effective." Not mine.
We passed 80s know the new .40 s&w .40 underwood .40 dobletap .40 corbon Why people still compare 9mm vs. 40 Is obviously. 40 is more power bigger damage. Makes more sense .40 vs 357sig
With modern ammo design the one shot stop is virtually identical for 9mm and 40cal. with more capacity less recoil, and cheaper to shoot the 9mm most people choose 9mm now days. Tbh I like all 9mm 45 and 40 cal I dont like 380 acp and alot of 38 special because most loading of 38 and 380 lack the velocity to expand.
The 10 is better then either of them but everyone likes the 40 and for a good reason it is a great gun great caliber. If in fact they was going for a better all around caliber they should let who ever works for them FBI CIA STATE POLICE CITY POLICE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT all let each officer carry their own choice and by their own ammo if they dont want to carry what their dept supplies becuase everyone should find 2 things in a handgun. One that fits your hand the best and that you can shoot with accuracy on a center mass shot repeatedly. That makes that officer men or women way more lethal in both accuracy and confidence not ever pearson is the same especially in hand size and hand/arm strength. Accuracy from the very start of a fire fight is much more important then caliber. 2 well placed center mass shots right from the start 98 out of a 100 will end that firefight. Now I would put a limit on that size to. No 380's and up to 357mag. 380 and down is just to small and nobody needs to carry anything bigger then the 357mag plus if you carry bigger then that you won't that many shots like 44 and up you dont get that many shots before a reload may work against you. I mean that gives you 9 great caliber's to carry and I'm sure anyone can find one that fits them best.
Likely, much like yourself, I have been carrying since early 90s. In the day, the 357 revolver was my primary carry. I gravitated to 40 over 45 for a variety of reasons. My main carry has been a 40 of one size & shade or another since 98(I believe). I have carried a few 9mm & 45acp on occasion, even 10mm & 44 mag when appropriate; however, I have always come back to the 40. To me it is still a proven viable caliber that affords me a bit more capacity than the 45. I will admit my 45 Shield has been a pleasure to carry with confidence quite a bit this past year. Good content. Thank you sir. Keep at it.
Guardian Minifarm ha..sorry to disappoint..I couldn't legally carry till 2003..lol. That said I started ex official with a .38..then .40..then .45..then 9mm/.38/.357...finally settled on 9mm..for most occasions..10mm for back woods scenarios.. I go with what works..which today means what you shoot best with in applicable situations...which could include any service caliber..
@@7N6ballistics I myself carry a 40 shield but am considering buying a 9mm for better placement on my targets and shooting ease. The modern 9mm bullets are awesome.
elzippo Please explain how physics applies to the discussion at hand? There are many ways physics can be applied, the most obvious is recoil. The question is how does the differences in physical properties affect the effectiveness at stopping a human aggressor?
@@7N6ballistics paul harrell did a video called 9mm vs .40 I suggest you watch it. kinetic energy makes a lot of difference for penetrating barriers and chewing up body armor. also knocking down steel and spinning spinners if you compete. in ballistics gel tests it's roughly the same as 9mm but on the cinder block test the 9mm took 16 vs 8 rounds to go through. makes the 9mm capacity advantage null. more reliable expansion too. I know people don't believe in wound cavity and "hydrostatic shock" anymore but my gut tells me if a big ass wound cavity forms in my chest it's going to be a worse day than a small wound cavity. same for bones and shit, you might need to make a limb shot under a car if you're a police officer or fighting an assailant with body armor. 40 turns bones to dust 9mm mostly just bounces off them. also no offense but you're using peasant guns. my USP 40 and VP40 shoot smoother than most non-HK 9's I've tried. also modern technology has advanced in the area of pistol comps too, from which .40 benefits much more. 9mm comps do nothing besides make the gun less reliable. at the end of the day, do you want a round that does MOST things "good enough" or do you want a round that's a bit more expensive and does EVERYTHING good enough. I think caliber wars are stupid because there's some many other variables besides the caliber itself like the gun it's chambered in. but people don't want to think and just want to buy glock 19s....
I carry both with modern rounds. My 9mm is easier to conceal, my 40 has a bit more stopping power. Ammunition for both is reasonably priced so I can afford to practice with both so I get a lot of fun range time. Best of both worlds!
@@rodiculous9464 I will take a 40 cal even if it is a Glock or any other good gun over a 9mm especially if I have 16 shots with the 40 and only 2 more with the 9mm depending on state.
Jason I think there was less reason to push the technology as hard as the 9mm. Remember the 40 came about because they needed something with more pop than the 9 but found the 10mm was too much for many agents. Thus the 40 was born. The 40 (now, I'm a fan of the 40 and have owned a lot of them so I'm not talking trash) has a very snappy recoil so follow up shots were compromised. Since law enforcement will pretty much always need follow up shots, there was a lot of reason to put energy (money) into developing a more effective 9mm
Exactly, what makes anyone ( but .9mm guys ) think that they would only advance the .9mm REALLY!! , As I can recall the government buying/ stocking up on millions of JHP'S in the . 40 ammo , I will say this again the FBI / military only went back to . 9mm because of all the light weight women and soft hand girly men could be able to fire Thier weapon, and if you really do the research they use the 9 because of more rounds (2-3 ) because they can't hit Thier target . Give me my . 40 S&W 14 round with one in the chamber ALL FREAKING DAY I'm 5'4" 140 pounds and even loaded with 180 grain I have no problems with follow ups and great grouping shots and RECOIL WHAT FREAKING RECOIL !!!! The . 40 has proven over and over that it is the all around best choice when it comes to fire power ( Handgun ) the facts speak for themselves.
Maybe I'm just a weirdo but I own 9s and .40s and shoot both. I know it's very odd of me. I even own a .45 and I believe they will all drop a grown man if need be, strange.
Well my friends I hate to tell you this but you are missing the point of this exercise. Its not what gun will kill someone with however many shots. Its to show the point of a 1 shot at the bad guy to drop him or take him out of the fight and how you get to that point is by penetration/depth of the round your using to get to the vital organs. From a 5ft 5 guy that weighs 135lbs to a 6ft 10 guy that weighs 375lbs. It must go in far enough to do the job. That's what this demonstration is showing. Can the new 9 bullet get in deep enough to stop who ever as compared to the 40 and yes even I thought it was a bit strange that the new gen 40 bullets wasn't used to have a fare comparison but the guy who did this video responded to me on here saying he has another video on utube that has the new 40 ammo test also. Now myself with my experience and talking to military folks - police - FBI and just folks that come in to our indoor range pretty much all lean to the 40 just like most folks on here. Plus there is this video that shows everyone the even the older 40 ammo still penetrated better/deeper the the new gen 9 ammo. So if your life was on the line and you only had 1 bullet for your protection what caliber would you choose ?
Modern 45 ACP and 40 S&W are pretty much equal. Paul Harrel showed that on a video he did. Depending on what ammo you use, and what barrel length you use, 40 and 45 are equal in ballistic performance. 40 gives you 1 or 2 more rounds over 45 depending on what platform you are using for comparison. 45 has the advantage of lower pressures for less wear on the platform than 40. 9mm has a just a slightly less effective ballistics over 40 and 45. Yet it gives you 2 to 4 more rounds depending on what platform your using for comparison. And has lower felt recoil over 40 and 45. All three with the cheapest ammo you can find still meet FBI specs. Modern 380 ACP ammo meets FBI specs. 45 GAP, 357 Sig, 38 Spcl, 44 Spcl, 38 Super, 32 long, 32 H&R Mag, 45 long colt, 7.62x19 Tok, 9x18 Mak, and 327Mag all meet FBI specs. Good ol' European 32 ACP ammo (7.65x17 Browning) FMJs meet FBI Specs out of a 2 inch barreled Keltec p32. What should drive you is what your good at shooting? What can you afford? What are you more accurate with? What platform fits your hand better? What platform will you bother to actually carry and shoot on a regular basis? Those are the more important factors; not the cartridge. Not everyone can handle a 41 mag, 44 mag, 454 Csl, 460 mag, 500 mag, 10mm, 357 Mag, or 45 Super in a small platform... let alone a 380 micro gun. Actual felt recoil is a big factor in people missing their target under stress. +P or Super ammo is only good if you train with it as it shocks your wrists and hands a lot more than standard pressure. And if your not used to compensating for it, your going to miss your target. What matters is if you HIT THEM. The rest is moot.
A buddy of mine when he was a teenager got shot in the back 2 times with 9mm HP and he ran like 5 or 6 blocks to a party store and finally collapsed inside. One bullet went in his lower back and lodged by his kidney the other went deflected off his shoulder blade and deflated his lung and he still wasn’t totally stopped, it took at least a few mins! If he was armed he could of totally turned around and returned fire even though he was shot a couple times in pretty severe areas...
Also everyone knows why they switched back to the 9mm right? The FBI agents rarely get into firefights and everyone knows marksmanship is a perishable skill. So, there is that and you can shoot at paper everyday but when bullets are flying over your head the game changes so does your fight or flight reaction.
Not true I get from 5 to 7 rounds more with my 40 caliber over the 45 caliber 45 caliber goes from 7 rounds to 10 most of the time 40 caliber starts at 10 rounds and goes to 11 rounds to mine 15 rounds so more than just 1 or 2 rounds difference
9mm bullet technology, as well as the .40 have advanced over the years. I finally bought a couple of 9mm's 5 years ago because of that reason. I carried a .40 cal for 20 years and now I will also carry a 9mm and feel equally protected with either one. I also carry a Commander .45. I love all three calibers.
The decision I made to get my .40 cal was that you get the best of both, muzzle velocity of a 9mm and the punch of a .45cal. And round capacity 14 +1. I love my .40 cal. With a 165 grain hollow point.....game over!
LongRifle 1 because the point of the test was to show why the bullet tech of the 80’s needed the extra mass of the .40 to do what the FBI wanted. However with modern bullet tech it’s no longer necessary. Thus illustrating why the 9mm is regaining popularity amongst LE. If the FBI had modern bullet tech when they first conducted their wound seminar the .40 would’ve likely never been produced.
Ron Williams Both meet the spec. Modern duty ammo is engineered to meet the same requirements regardless of caliber. Once sufficient penetration is achieved shot placement becomes the critical factor. There’s nothing more to be had from a service caliber handgun using contemporary bullet designs.
@@7N6ballistics Look I'm going to tell you the main factor in this bullet crap and the real reason why some Law Enforcement Agencies are going back to the 9. The tech has very little to do with it. Both calibers will get the job done as long as you can hit head or center mass. The main reason and I know for a fact is this. There are more and more female law enforcement and just about all departments use compacts now and that gives a bit more barrel jump. They sat back and watched and started noticeing on target hits that some smaller men and the female's wasn't performing on average of what they wanted. So going back to the 9 in the compact worked. The barrel jump went down and target hits on average went up over 30% for the women plus 2 small other factors. You can get 9's with 17shots now and the bullet tech. Add all that together is why some are going back to the 9's. Now is it a big factor which caliber does a better job ? Depends on the test. If your throwing 3 shots down range and hit lets say center mass then not much at all but just 1 shot down range yes. Using ballistic gell the 9 even with new tech compared to the 40 new tech. There is significant difference in damage and the gell shows it. But that dont mean much becuase the teach at all L.E.A to always put 2 shots center mass. In fact they have a saying at the academy now ( put 2 in the chest because deadmen cant testify) FACT ! So the 9 - 40 real debate ain't so much the caliber its a factor of 3. Actual target accuracy - 9 bullet tech - 17+1 shots now.... It all factored in on the decision plus it helps a bit the 9 ammo is a lil cheaper but it still comes down to what each department(s) wants their officers to use. In my state of TN 8 out of 10 depts do carry 40's and some smaller depts let each officer carry their own handguns with these rules. Must be 1of 5 calibers 9-10-40-45-357sig or magnum Other carries 12 guage only Semi auto or pump AR's in either calibers 223 - 556 - 308 I carry my own 3 guns I only buy American 🇺🇸 S&W 40 14+1 w/3 spare mags I shoot Hornady critical defense FTX 165gr My back up gun is a 357 performance center 8 shot Revolver - Hornady leverolution FTX 165 gr DPMS oracle LR 308 25 rnd mag w/3 spare mags Hornady ELD-X 178 gr
lee strong A couple things. Gel does not show “damage” and anyone looking at the cracks formed in gel as damage has misinterpreted the results. Hit rates by law enforcement have always been low...not because of small men and women, but because of poor training. If you think back in the day somehow le were better shooters your misinformed. Organizations such as US SOCOM and Las Vegas Metro SWAT use 9mm by choice, not because of weak people. The saying from your Academy is ridiculous and whoever is parroting that should be shut down. We shoot until we no longer have a threat doesn’t matter the number of rounds. Their is no 3 to 1 or any other formula to determine effectiveness. Once sufficient penetration is achieved, shot placement becomes the most critical factor. If you have quality equipment and get out and train, then roll with what you got.
@@7N6ballistics No sir you are the one miss informed. Gel was designed for the purpose of imatateing the H. Body instead of dead animal bodies (FACT) and I wasn't talking about gel cracks actually ive never seen gel crack unless yours was old or something. I'm talking about bullet fragments and their trails that you can see inside the gel so you can see 2 things. 1 How the bullet broke up after entrance and how it spreads thru the gel. 2 what damages the bullet actually cuased. 9's dont come close to what a 40 will do in both depth of penetration or internal bullet frags (FACT) Im not sure what kind of tranning you or people you know had but all the law enforcement folks i know are excellent shots both with hand and long guns so it must be y'alls training. My dad was a city cop my brother lives 1 county over from me and he's a co.sheriff my fiancee's dad is a S.Trooper in Illinois and on my moms side of the family I have a uncle that was a city cop in Michigan where she's from plus lots of us have military training as well as academy and I'm hear to tell you they do teach now at police academies to put 2 shots center mass right of the bat and if that don't stop the perpetrator then of course you would fire more shots. Not sure what you said about 3 shots becuase I never said anything about 3. Its if you have to shoot someone you shoot 2 right from the start at center mass and more if need be. I have relatives in 3 states plus mine that are law enforcement And like I said lots of agencies/dept choose what they want their folks to use but not all here in TN I dont know any dept that use 9's and size does play a part in their desision making. They just can't and wont say that out loud becuase it would be considered discrimination to women. Fact is women can't shoot bigger caliber weapons with the same accuracy as men and I'm not picking on them either they just ain't as strong period. My fiancee will tell you that herself. She has 4 H.Guns a 380- (2) 9's and a 40 she is a great shot with the 380 and the 9s but not quite as good with her 40 and we go to the range both indoor and outdoor at least twice a month. she cant shoot as good with my 357-45- and she won't even try my 44 so your big time wrong on that point. Maybe the people you know just dont have the skills to be a good shot some do some don't not even with practice. Just like sports not everyone can be in MLB or NBA or NFL for a reason. The main point is this. Find a gun that 1 fits your hand and feels good 2 shoot at least 50 rnds your first time and see how you do and if its to much or not enough then go from there you will find the right size and caliber that suits you best everyone is different. Good example. My son dont do as well with my 40 as he does with his 9 at 40ft not a big difference but noticeable and he's 5ft8 170lbs same with my fiancee and she's 5ft6 117lbs a 40 gives them a just a bit of difficulty like 2 to 4 in from their 9's and they both shoot correctly with both hands like you should if your a average to good shooter now if your good to excellent shot you can use 1 or 2 hands amd still do very well. I shoot both ways and switch hands just in case I ever need to it won't be so strange feeling. You know the old saying im sure practice makes perfect. Everyone is different so to each his own right Happy shootin and stay safe out there ✌
I'll answer your questions: Why did the FBI gravitate towards .40 caliber in the 1980's? Because there were less women, and men with feminine traits, in the FBI. Why is the FBI going back to 9mm? Because there are more women, and men with feminine traits, in the FBI. My opinion: 1. As a former LE supervisor, women deputies, as a whole, had performance levels equal to men deputies. 2. All pistol calibers are similar in their LACK of stopping or knock down power. 3. Shotguns and rifles are far superior.
Southern Fun unfortunately I do not have shareable links, but there are numerous reports documenting all service calibers failing to stop assailants with multiple, some times over a dozen hits. .40 included. Your statement of .40 needing only one hit and never failing is completely BS. No one with any real knowledge of terminal ballistics would make such a BS claim. My information includes autopsies reports as well. The correlation between the penetration seen in these jugs and gel is based off of the documentation I have on actual calibrated ordnance gel. If not using plastic jugs and using only water the correlation is 2x according to Dr. Fackler... The statement of not being able to tell the difference is based off of corner reports, and if that doesn’t suit you it was based off of almost identical recovered diameters. Actually the 9mm was slightly greater..but close enough to say..it wouldn’t have been a noticeable difference. I have been able to conduct enough necropsies on game animals to be comfortable saying at typical service handgun velocities similar diameter bullets make similar holes. If you honestly want to call me a liar please conduct your own test and share the video...I don’t mind additional data for a more comprehensive view.
@@7N6ballistics doesn't matter what yours opinion is about 40sw, the 40sw is superior then 9mm that just physics, the only thing 9mm have over 40sw is less recoil and slightly more capacity that all, saying 9mm performance equals to 40sw then you're delusional
@@DvBattlegears there's more to it than capacity and recoil, but that's a seperate topic. From a physics/terminal point of view service caliber handguns do not have the necessary velocity or energy to cause serious wounding outside of what the projectile actually crushes. This makes penetration and shot placement the key to physically incapacitating a human. There's no magic here. Major departments that issue 9mm, .40, and .45 say the same thing. Given similar shot placement they don't see any significant difference in effectivness. This backs up the FBI findings. Boarder Patrol recently switched as well. This trend is unlikely to slow down as more and more departments come to the same conclusion. The terminal performance of .40 compared to 9mm is no longer outweighing the drawbacks. If you carry a .40 and are comfortable with it great, but stop believing it is some kind of death ray that somehow defies actual physics. All the rules apply, penetration, shot placement, expansion...in that order. Since both are penetrating adequately and expansion levels are typically within 1/10 inch or less with modern ammo, shot placement becomes the key to effectiveness. .40 gets the job done, but so does 9mm. The real difference between the 2 calibers actually has nothing to do with the bullets themselves, rather it's the human element pulling the trigger. That's the real "physics" involved.
Good video and I’m sticking with my 40’s cal I have 9mm’s and yeah there good for Follow-up shots . in a close quarter gun fight you want something that has better stopping power 40 or 45 or 357 mag
In other words, you want more than any service handgun can offer if possible, because they are more alike than they are different....which brings us to rifles and shotguns.... Exactly.
boedude Do you have a source for that penetration claim? Once sufficient mass has achieved a desired level of penetration there isn’t much more to be had when talking about service caliber handgun terminal ballistics. Since 9mm can now achieve this, other factors must be looked at. It is there that the current 9mm is getting the nod from law enforcement. This wasn’t a decision that happened overnight. It is a culmination of experience that has happened over decades now. As current service weapons wear out, or are being looked at for upgrade, you can expect to see more of this trend...just is what it is..🤷♂️
@@7N6ballistics the only reason the fbi switched to 9mm was there agent could qualify with it and the ones who could with 40 scores went up. next was the cost when your buys a few hundred thousand rounds a year that 4cent+ adds up. and finally someone higher up wanted the new sig gun and got a nice kick back or owed somebody a back scratch. listen and look for yourself. not at bullets but at physics. you cant fight a bigger heavier round going the same or close to the same speed as a smaller lighter one will always cause more damage. say you shoot someone with a 9mm and you miss the heart by 0.04 45acp or 40 will hit the heart and cause some damage. no matter how small it will be ill take any advantage i can get in a gunfight. im not saying 9mm is a bad round. i like it too but its just not as powerful or causes the damage the other 2 rounds do
@@7N6ballistics www.luckygunner.com/40-sw-180-grain-jhp-hst-federal-premium-le-50-rounds#geltest the 9 can get equal penetration or equal expansion but not both
boedude well, first off I can tell you those penetration depths are inaccurate. Synthetic gel is not calibrated ordnance gel. I stopped using that stuff because it showed too many anomalies vs real ordnance gel, increased penetration and under expansion. Secondly if those depths were too be believed the .40 over penetrated per the protocol. 3rd apples to apples .07” diameter and .5” depth difference. Does that sound significant in comparison to a human body? www.luckygunner.com/9mm-p-124-grain-hst-hp-federal-premium-law-enforcement-50-rounds#geltest
You did a great job on this Test however I'm not a 9mm fanboy nor do I dislike it but the .40s&w is and always will be a far more superior round in every aspect just because law Enforcement reverts back to the 9mm does not influence me at all as the Govt. will switch again to another round in a few years maybe even back to the .40 who knows...I carry .40 and .45 about 90% of the time the rest of my carry rotation may be the 9mm,,.357sig or 10mm.
Exactly, I dont see why people think that the FBI going back to 9mm makes it the pinnacle of perfection, if they're so great at choosing the best all around caliber why did they leave 9mm just to go back to it 30 some years later?
@@7N6ballistics I understand that both callibers have undergone many im improvements in the last 30 years. My point is why not stick with the more powerful caliber? Is the recoil of a .40 really that hard on so many people?
Babahoe_ make sure to watch the follow up link in the description. I don’t know about better all around..basically you trade .10” greater bullet diameter for increased recoil, wear and tear, and reduced capacity.... There is no free lunch.
Where is the up to date ammo for the .40?I too gravitate to the .40 cal over the years! I own various calibers but when I head out the door I grab my .40. You have to remember the .40 has up to date ammo too! Again that will make it better as always, if you start with more you end up with more period!
@@7N6ballistics not with the better 40 ammo will show the 9mm still is not as good as 40 no matter how bad you 9mm fanboys want it to be it just not cause physics says it cant be
Big Sean247 about a .10” larger hole is about the difference you can expect. Shot placement with adequate penetration is the key. The human body can easily absorb a service handgun projectiles energy and momentum..its the placement of the crushed tissues path through the body that matters.
The switch back is clearly due to 9mm being cheaper to train with, and carries higher capacity. Police, even FBI, aren't really that accurate contrary to popular belief, and most civilians get more range time than police. So if the cops can train cheaper, hopefully they'll train more often, and even if they don't, the mag capacity is higher, which statistically means more rounds will hit even if their abysmal accuracy percentage remains the same. 20% of 17-18 is more than 20% of 13-14. Since a modern 9mm can perform similar to a .40S&W from the 1980s, seems obvious they'll go with the 9mm now that it can pass the barrier tests. I'd say the .40S&W is still the superior caliber of the two in the hands of a seasoned shooter, though I admit 9mm is easier to manage recoil wise.
Goattacular Cost, and shoot ability are certainly factors to consider. However, it should be noted the Gold Dot G2 was one of the highest scoring rounds in the FBI’s testing since it was revised in the 1990’s. That definitely carried weight in there decision.
@@7N6ballistics It’s always about money in the federal government. I was stationed close to Qauntico had friends there and when the change started most were told they are going back to 9mm it’s cheaper passes the minimum requirements and let’s us buy ammo from the same prime vendor the armed forces do thus real cheap. I have the Taurus G2c in both 9mm and 40SW I find very little difference in recoil and when using the same type of ammo out of identical gums the 4OSW clearly out performs the 9mm. I first qualified on a 1911, then the M9 I carry a 38/357/40/45 the only one I don’t carry is the 9. Yes the 9 is a good round will get the job done heck it has more pop than my 38+P less than my 357 but since my 9 is in the identical gun as my 40 I go with the more powerful round. As far as shooting I shoot all of them about the same with me being best with my 45 ACP (1911)that during my career in the military I never scored less than expert.(USN). In the end shoot the round you like and shoot best. But I do agree you should have used a modern 40 too.
I used to shy away from the .40 cal but after trying again at a range I got myself a Glock 23. I find the recoil manageable and I agree it kinda encourages me to focus on good technique. After some practice I love it!
Note, any increases in bullet technologies are available in the .40 S&W as well giving higher energies at point of impact. All of my local police departments carry .40 S&W. For what it's worth, I rotate between 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP.
Good video. Both are excellent rounds, but there is no comparison in power between the two. The 40 is a very hot round. Much hotter than the 9mm. But I can see why there is a return to the 9mm as it is much easier to shoot and not as abusive to guns due to it's much lower pressure.
All I've heard so far in the comments is a bunch of bs from a bunch of people that have never been in a fire fight or a shooting of any kind. In 31 years in the army I never had anyone complain that the 9mm didn't kill them well and in 8 years as a police officer never heard anyone complain about the 40 killing them. Point is very simple, 40 recoil is snappy and follow up shots aren't as fast for most shooters. Hst 9 rounds still aren't as snappy on recoil as ther 40. All of you bragging about either caliber being better are full of yourselves and shite. Shot placement and follow up shot is the key, every handgun caliber has failed to make one shot stops and every one has made one shot stops. So that argument is worthless too. Do your research every military in the world has tested researched and figured out what works. How many use the 10, the 40 or the 45. And that's not because of NATO either. It's because of cost, wear and tear (yes 40s and 10s do wear out faster) and weight. Is there a true perfect caliber NO but an all around caliber yes , for general usage the 9mm wins that round. For most common round used world wide well again the 9mm (not counting the. 22,32acp) is the 40 a good round yes is it perfect no. Is the 9mm perfect, no, Soo instead of putting each other down and acting like a bunch of spoiled little shite heads because someone doesn't like your pet round support each others choices and encourage them to get training and to practice. Lift up the gun community don't put them down. All you that want to blast me for this post go for it but remember I have used both in shootings and I hope you never have to! If you do lawyer up and know your rights and be ready because everything you've ever posted will be used against you, every little thing you've done to your weapon will be questioned and everyone you knows will be interviewed. All it takes is someone to say they couldn't wait to show that the could______insert stupid thing you said about being involved in a shooting. Just my advice and opinion. End of
Your either a fraud about your service or your the type of cop that gives other cops bad names. Please get a psych exam if your still armed and on the streets.
My philosophy was always be proficient and accurate with whatever I have. Law enforcement and military have to equip a lot of people and the 9mm saves them a lot of money. Lol personally I use a .40 though because it’s easier for me to find on the shelf and my states DNR doesn’t allow 9mm for deer.
Yeah I have 4.25 S&W MP 2 in 40 and the Sig P365 and I love them both. I also use Hornady critical defense. My only real complaint is 40 is more expensive to shoot which in the end isn't that big a deal.
Great video. Of all the shootings I've worked over the years I've seen two cases of 9mm skipping off the skull and one case of skipping off a rib. I've never seen a 40 or 45 skip off bone. I have seen a 45 ball shatter a femur without exiting the leg.
btube325 that makes sense. The 9mm fmj is typically a round nose profile. The same profile that makes for good feeding characteristics in older guns also makes for easy deflection. Jim Cirillo spoke extensively about round nose bullets deflecting off of skulls. Yet another reason to avoid FMJ.
You just made up everything you said. Total lies and you know it. You can easily find experts like Bill Allard and Bob Stasch who talk about some of the dozens of shootings they've been in and how 45's have skipped off of skulls.
Great test, it doesnt matter what you carry as much as that you carry. That being said when heading to the range I dont hesitate to grab a 9mm. But for EDC or when i get out of bed in the middle of the night I'm reaching for a 40 or 10mm.
@@7N6ballistics well the one time I woke up and could see flashlights all over the front of my house I did grab an ar but it turned out to be cops looking for the previous home owner, so I'm glad I saw that they were police before they saw me with my rifle at the ready. That would have been bad lol.
Three points: 1; you said at the end that the HST gives the "same performance as the 40 with new bullet tech" . The obsolete 40 went a jug further than the new 9mm, which only achieves minimum standards by you test. 2; 40 has benefited from the same bullet tech advancements, so no question, the 40 still outperforms the 9mm. One can manage the recoil just fine (which may be similar to a 9mm+p+ btw) if he just takes it to the range and actually practices with it, not just those dry-fire drills 9-mil guys love so much. 3; The FBI never said that their going back to 9mm was because it now meets their requirements. They said that 9mm best complimented the way they use their guns, specifically lots of little girls and people who don't practice, lots of low-recoil rounds so they can getvthe job done with two or three mags without hurtingvtheir limp wrists as opposed to four or five mags and needing ice for those wrists.
I love how you use 1 very average .40 load from a 4” barrel and then you used several loads of 9mm and some that are +p top of the line and short them out of a 4.5” barrel. This test was super biased.
krombopulous michael ah yes, the .40 isn’t.40 enough... I have 2 more videos on this topic...the second is linked in the description... Check it out and check out the pt.3 video...
@@7N6ballistics Yeah i checked those out and the .40 ammo that you use is still way below max power in both of those other videos. If the .40 you're shooting isnt in the 500-650 ft lb range then you're not using the calibers full potential and its an unfair comparison because 9mm +p is the maximum loading for that caliber. If you want people like me who are well educated on calibers to stop criticizing your selection, i suggest you buy your .40 and 10mm and even 9mm from ammo manufacturers like buffalo bore, underwood, double tap and cor bon. those companies are giving us maximum loadings that are akin to powerful handloads. I have nothing personal against you, i just disagree with your methodology and i think its important to show people an honest assessment of a calibers maximum capability scientifically rather than giving one caliber clear and unfair advantages over another in testing.
@@7N6ballistics also here's some hot .40 to show the power im talking about in the following links ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lCj4beM2inU.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8_fzqUAb-2A.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-g2HWB8K8Kn8.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BtgOmSnNDT8.html
@@krombopulousmichael8418 what?.....i have a video with 10mm and underwood... not to mention the 165 gr .40 hst was clocking 1170fps thats 502 ftlbs... study up on handgun wounding mechanisms and you'll find out why its not that important. i dont believe you actually watched the videos.
@@7N6ballistics Also watch the .40 smith and wesson shooting 10mm velocities video. this guy is shooting his published data, handloaded 135 grain .40 out of his 5" barrel glock 36 and is getting 1670 fps. thats 836 ftlbs which is so far above what a 9mm could ever do its not even funny. thats full blown hot loaded 357 magnum power. his 180 grain loads are going over 1350 fps which could stop a bear with ease.
I think how much water was left in the jugs the 40 went through says it all. they were pretty much empty when you picked them up, the jugs the 9 went in still had tons of water. if you want small holes go 9 want bigger holes go 40
love life maybe...or maybe I had to search around and figure out what was going on..sorry, but sometimes batteries die, i completely screw up what im going to convey...these things happen... I however do not alter the results. The only thing to take away from this is penetration and expanded diameter..nothing more...because thats all that really matters when dealing with these types of test...in other words, ignore the condition of the jugs....and in this case the 9mm actually had a slightly larger diameter....though not significant in my opinion..be sure to check out my follow up vids on this topic.
I have the.45,.40 & 9 mm.......their all great self defense cartridges with the right bullet so why folks get upset is beyond me because if your reading these comments most of you have these cartridges as well because most of us are gun lovers,so,....... "Can't we all just get along?" ........l.o.l.
Exactly. Its almost like they're actually making a case on what they would prefer to be hit with. I dont want to be hit by either. Even a .22 can kill a man
This video was interesting to me, as a former cop that was involved in a lot of ballistic testing in that era. I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head, except for two fairly minor points. For those who don't go back quite as far as guys my age, it is absolutely true that the .40, when introduced in 1990, offered a material advantage over the 9mm available at the time. The 9mm of the day, as loaded in the United States, wasn't exactly ineffective, if you got the right round, but it was far from the ideal patrol cartridge, and results were highly scenario dependent. The .40, and five years later the .357 SIG, filled that role admirably in that era, and at the time worked better over a wider variety of circumstances. My two observations are that 1) the Federal 9BP load was about the best thing we had in that caliber back then, and it worked better on soft tissue when loaded as the 9BP-LE version. But, when run at the higher velocities, if it hit anything containing water (like human tissue), it actually penetrated LESS than the standard pressure 9BP. This tendency is somewhat exaggerated when shooting water vs. gelatin, but it is there. Certain agencies that didn't deal with auto glass or other barrier penetration, such as executive protection units like the Secret Service and State Department Diplomatic Security, actually sought out this load and the equivalent Remington and Winchester +P+ loads specifically because they did not exit the human body and almost always fragmented at the end of their travel. This was seen as desirable in crowd scenarios. Clearly the 9mm loads available today are superior patrol rounds, but in a concealed carry situation, I wouldn't feel poorly armed if loaded with either the 9BP or the 9BP-LE load. Others must have agreed, because Peter Pi made his fortune and built Cor-Bon as a company by loading a 115 grain 9mm +P+ load that he would sell to civilians while the majors made theirs police only. My other point is that, as others have commented, while the 9mm has been greatly improved, so has the .40 during the intervening years. If we compare equivalent technology, the modern .40 still retains an edge over the modern 9mm. But, as a former police firearms trainer and armorer, having experienced ever decreased training time and ammunition budgets, and fewer and fewer police recruits who have shooting experience, and care less and less about skill at arms every day, I'd say that the slight edge that the .40 may provide probably isn't worth it anymore in terms of getting recruits qualified, wear and tear on the guns, and ammo cost. Another point to consider is that the .40 S&W is a completely different proposition from a recoil standpoint when loaded in a heavier metal-framed pistol like the original S&W 4006, or a SIG P229 that we started out with than it is in a light polymer-framed handgun. A lightweight gun in .40 with duty loads is hard for a new person who may have never shot a gun before to master. Especially if they only get two trips to the range a year. How much of an edge does the .40 still provide? Well, if we look at professionally done actual gel tests performed to FBI standards in a ballistic laboratory, we see that when comparing the 147 grain HST load to the 180 grain HST load on the auto glass test, the 9mm actually expands a bit better (.680 vs .620) but the .40 penetrates about 3 inches deeper after the windshield (14 inches vs 11 inches). The .40 retains 95% of its weight, while the 9mm load retains 91%, all according to Federal's LE data. Is this a big deal? Probably not, but I can certainly see why some people would prefer to hang on to their .40's. I personally still own and enjoy my .40's and .357 SIG's, but don't feel under-armed with a 9mm. 30 years ago, I probably would not have felt that way with the 9mm. Excellent video. Thanks for making it. I think it is good for newer people to see where we came from, ammunition-wise.
Tom Crawford Ya, hard to convey a lot of that in a RU-vid vid..so I focus on where there would be a significant difference that I could easily show. Interesting on bple vs bp..I usually get more pen out of bple. This can be seen in other testing available on RU-vid as well. The LE tables on the manufactures website are more of guidelines...per Winchester sometimes the same loading in the same barrier can give awesome results one day and average the next...just one of those things. Overall it’s a decent baseline of comparison though. Oddly some folks were mad I used a 4006...guess it isn’t.40 cal enough.... I did 2 additional videos on this using modern ammo as well.
@@7N6ballistics It was a well done video and I enjoyed watching it. You, unlike many others, got the history right. Many guys who weren't around back then seem to think that we didn't trust the 9mm back then because it was seen as "foreign". They didn't see how awfully under-loaded and poorly designed some of the rounds of the day were. Back then, the two loads you demonstrated were some of the very few choices we had that worked. Well done..
People complain that the .40 is “too snappy”, then they load their 9mm with +P+ ammo-BUT they never practice with it. I’d they did, they wouldn’t be able to tell much of a difference between a +P+ 9mm VS a .40 On top of that, “modern technology” has applied to all cals. Bottom line, the 9mm projectile is smaller and it will always be smaller.
delwin green which is the big question... Given such close performance, given modern ammo, does the extra recoil, wear and tear, and cost outweigh whatever benefit can be achieved? That’s the big question..time will tell. In 10yrs we will likely have an answer... Regardless, shot placement is the key...accurate/timely hits are what really matter.
Question for you: where do you get those 50 round boxes of 9 mm HST? Also, while I think 40 cal is superior to 9 mm, I picked up a 9 mm due to concealability. That's just me. Also also... 10 mm > all normal pistol calibers 😁
Nice comparison video. I understand where the FBI is coming from, but One thing you have to remember, the FBI agents MISS A LOT! So they need more rounds. (not being nasty, it’s just a fact) Also keep in mind the improvements in the 40 caliber rounds. Thanks!😊
Carol Anne Sparkman believe it or not, the FBI tends to get more training than most police agencies...budget..truth is most Law Enforcement Officers simply view a gun as a tool they have to carry around...has been that way since the beginning... The FBI findings are even more applicable to armed citizens..where compact handguns rule the roost... Check the links in the video....this one has been taken the wrong way by a lot of folks.
Ever since the early 20th Century we have been hearing the old story; "We've developed a new special bullet for the 9mm - it's GREAT now. Don't believe evidence from the field."
And the new 9mm still wasn't AS STRONG as the OLD SCHOOL .40 lol. If you are looking for good justifiable reasons to continue your love affair with 9MM as a defense caliber then absolutely- this is the video for you. It shows that new 9mm ammo is almost as strong as what it was replaced with 30 years ago. But still what have we learned? Math is math. Numbers are numbers. Weight is weight. Power is power. You can't out-engineer that. .40 is stronger. .40 hits harder. .40 is bigger. Also - .40 is more expensive .40 exerts more wear and tear on your gun up-chambered from 9MM (Glock) and you lose 1 to 2 rounds (oh no!). Anndd that darn "snappy" recoil that you must have a wrist to handle. So the MAJOR lesson learned - people should have never moved away from .45 ACP. Still king! :D
today's experts (insert your favorite comment here) say that all handgun rounds are substantially the same regarding terminal ballistics, providing they reach a specified penetration depth, using whatever protocols determined to be appropriate. to stop a person - velocities under 2200fps are not capable of hydrostatic damage, and the specific diameter of an expanded bullet (expansion causes more tissue damage than non expanded or fmj bullets) does not lead to demonstrably more or less damage. i am not a physician or a scientist. but this new stance leads me to believe that they believe the 9mm to be the ultimate handgun cartridge, as more weight, diameter, velocity, energy have no effect on a human body. and any extra gun weight and/or recoil equates to lost time getting additional shots on target. apparently the 9 just cannot be improved upon the 357s is basically a 9mm on steroids so velocity by itself doesn't matter. the heavier 45 in a standard and +p loading (pdx) expand to an inch in diameter so expanded diameter matters nothing. the 40 is faster and heavier and bigger so more in all categories doesnt matter. ive only been shooting for 40 years so i still know less than i don't know. i have seen the caliber wars in a significant number of targets, live and otherwise. in those there is a noticeable difference. but not being a pathologist i guess i must accept the fact that the human body reacts differently than all of them
While I carry 124 plus p hst or golden saber black belt, and some 9bple....a follow up vid on .357 Sig gold dot, 165 .40 gold dot, and 10mm 180 or 200 gold dots would show 9mm w best loads now dang good but there is still better in 4 layer and windshield tests. Compare on Vista speer federal pages...most people most cops 9mm fine, special teams entry etc should be issues both the duty 9mm and version in one of the more energy calibers for entry etc
Shane D what? It didn’t meet the spec... All I stated was it’s still in use..which is factual. I simply stated it performed better than I thought it would..I honestly didn’t expect a dent on the back of jug 3. What exactly are you implying?
Theron D. Patron This is an excerpt from the Chief Army Medical Officer evaluating US small arms after WW2. “From an analysis of these facts and the requirements for penetration of skin and bone, it can be readily appreciated that the .45 caliber bullet is of little value as a wound-producing agent except in the softer tissues and at near ranges. The bullet often fails either to penetrate or to fracture bone and practically never shatters bone in the manner common to the rifle bullet or fragment. The Japanese and German sidearms with muzzle velocities of approximately 1,100 f.p.s. were much more effective as antipersonnel weapons than the .45 caliber weapon. While the same bullet with its characteristics was used in the submachinegun, multiple hits probably compensated for the weaknesses, so apparent in single shots.” I have other videos attempting to address this topic.
I believe technology (body worn cameras) today shows us the human body can take several torso hits an still remain a threat. I just saw several L.E. videos indicate bad-guys taking several rounds from ultra modern patrol rifle in 5.56mm. Bad thing is, we the civilian viewer never get to see final outcomes to round effectiveness.
Not to nitpick, and it doesn't effect these test results in any way, but the FBI didn't technically move to the .40 S&W from the 9x19, they adopted the 10mm in it's full power configuration. Not long after, they discovered that the full power 10mm is a bitch to shoot. So they then asked for a watered down version. That was the new "FBI Load" or "10 mm Light" as it was also called back in the `90s. Of course given that performance of the new load didn't require those case dimensions, or pistols large enough to accommodate them, lead to the creation of a shortened case that would offer the same performance in a smaller package. That became known as the .40 Smith and Wesson, as it was made for the FBI's S&W 10mm pistols, or rather the new ones chambered for the .40 S&W. This was partly responsible for people not really taking any of it very seriously since the FBI adopted the 10mm for IT'S performance not for some diluted version of that which appeared to be more similar to that of a 9x19 or .45 ACP which they apparently didn't feel was good enough. This essentially meant neither would the .40 S&W be any better. They could have just let every agent and officer continue carrying the .357, 9mm, .45, or whatever else they were already shooting well. In following years the .40 has been looked at to find some place to fit into things. "Why should I switch to you?" was the question. I believe the caliber was pretty good but as far as rising above others as some new super solution to all things LE or personal defense related nothing was going to be the perfect solution. I see it as what it is, a half way point between the 9x19 and the .45 ACP. To my way of thinking it would seem a great concept for LE in that it is a balance of all the ballistics spectrum. Not too heavy or light, too small or big, average penetration and diameter of wound cavity, okay maybe bigger than average on that point. Capacity, recoil, pretty much everything you can measure on a gun or cartridge it's in the middle. Does that make it the perfect balance or just nothing special, or both? I don't know but I do know if it strikes you as the right choice for you then use it. If not just find what does and enjoy the process. Once you compare the whole matter to long guns it all seems very moot and uninteresting. The differences from one caliber to another seem not as significant as that between loadings and bullets. A good performing round in a gun you shoot well and will actually carry out in public (assuming it's for EDC) is the right choice no matter what caliber,,,,,,,,,, or what the FBI might say about it. :)
The 40 has evolved as well . Remember stopping power is the key . If you go back read the details in the FBI shoot out in the 80’s . The perps were shot multiple times. After they examined the effectiveness of 9mm against the bad guys . They found entry wounds along the hand on one where the bullet traveled along bone exiting the skin at the elbow. Also in other locations In the numerous hits they took , the bullets were not as effective. If 40’s had been used by the FBI ( that perps arm would have clearly been broken or badly damaged ) . Thus the gun battle would have ended sooner .
I carry .40 because that was the best economical and best ergonomic choice was for me. I can't stand Glock grips, so those were ruled out immediately. Sig Sauer and Walther have the best grips, but were too expensive. The 1911 was also too expensive, to big for practical concealed carry, and didn't hold enough rounds to justify the size. I considered a Makarov, but I don't really trust a .380 to punch through barriers, which as a professional driver, I need something that can punch through the doors or windshield from the inside if need be and still drop an attacker outside. I then picked up an Astra A-100 (Spanish spin on a Sig P226) in .40S&W, which feels great in the hand, has 13+1 capacity, is an all-steel design (can double as an effective, hefty 34 oz bludgeon if need be), is just on the threshold of being concealable, and most of all, was priced at $250, well within my limited budget. I really had my eyes set on a Walther CCP M2 (8+1 9mm), and may eventually get one. Might also pick up a Makarov at some point as a backup or just a range gun. My dream pistol would be a FN FN-45 Tactical, but those are crazy expensive. I will say, the 180gr Hornady Critical Duty rounds I carry in my Astra are pretty badass, though my pistol seems to really like Federal's aluminum case 180gr FMJ ammo when it comes to accuracy. I still maintain a 3.5" group at 7 yds while doing a rapid fire mag dump with my .40 now that I'm used to the recoil. Still need to work on getting rid of my downward flinch, as my groups land just below the bullseye, usually cutting a vertical slit, but that's just me needing more practice. After firing about 300 rounds now, I still haven't had a malfunction, even with really cheap reloaded ammo. It may be a bit of an obscure firearm, but it's been more reliable than the M92FS, M1911, and CZ-75 pistols I've shot (all of which malfunction about every other mag), though maybe that guy just doesn't take proper care of his weapons.
The 40S&W is still the most sold Law Enforcement round in North & South America because it works. The 357Sig is the top Federal Law Enforcement round because it works.
As far as I know, no Federal Agency issues .357 sig any longer. Virtually all have transitioned to 9mm. I have no idea where you are getting your information. As far as it “working”…well, it’s a 9mm so I don’t see why it wouldn’t.
I like sig elite 165 grain followed by Underwoods 135 grain both have outstanding performance or at least advertised velocities both really snappy out of my m&p40 m2.0 compact 4" and Springfield XD mod 2 4" most shooters usually go with 165 grain and for 9 I like 124 grain in the same brands the feel of the two calibers is night and day my guesstimate is that 40s&w is much more powerful
@@7N6ballistics I recently tried the Underwood 135 grain I only purchased 4 boxes it cycles through both my 40's and feels just as snappy as 165 grain I only tried it because of the advertised 1400 fps but I prefer 165 grain I'll probably try out the 165 & 180 grain in Underwood next time I only went with the 165 grain because it's what the guys at the shop said they use and recommended sig elite because it's a little cheaper than federal hst and Winchester
I would like to see test results from shooting from the car. Shooting through the windshield or door glass, to simulate a driver being attacked and having to shoot through the car glass.
Excellent testing, your conclusion however skips the fact that .40 cal ammunition has the same technology improvements as 9mm. Would have liked to see new ammo run through the .40 as well.
Does the water to gel comparison, you quoted, take the multiple layers of plastic, when using jugs, rather than a tank? It could be you’re getting better penetration performance from the bullets, than you are considering
If the windshield was laid back more like they actually are on most cars now days the poa/poi deviation would be greater. Plus, nobody sits that close to the windshield. Most dashboards are deeper that that now.
Mark F Its placed according to spec. Truck windshields are similarly sloped. As for cars one could argue the you might actually be firing at a downward angle if fairly close do to being taller than said vehicle. Either way it is a repeatable test setup.
My biggest reasons for using .40 is my states DNR says you have to use a caliber .357 or larger in a handgun for deer hunting and .357 sig is hard to find and it’s expensive. The 9mm can also be hard to find because of it’s popularity.
.357 sig uses same diameter bullet as 9mm. .355”. In fact, in a lot of cases manufacturers use the same bullets in either loading. 9mm Makarov uses .365”. Laws like that are just silly. It really shows the ignorance of many lawmakers.
Thank you for the comparison. One thing that hasn't been noted yet is that there are quite a few selections of 9mm ammo between 115 grain and 147 grain. How would a 124 or 135 grain projectile fair in relation to the 147? Would they possibly be a good compromise between velocity and mass? Would they perform better than the 147?
Postchal the gold dot and hst 124 gr perform well...gold dot a little better in auto glass do to bonded constrution... The current duty load for the fbi is the 135 +p Critical Duty. Personally I like HST with Gold Dot a close second. FBI prefers heavier projectiles for penetration through all barriers, but several big city departments..mainly Eastern US prefer the 124 gr...West coast seems to prefer 147gr...honestly both are good performers. Shot placement will be the decider...
the "new tech" 9mm based on the video did fairly well as far as the +P+ and as far as i'm concerned the HST did very well. I'm just saying that i always see videos comparing 30 year old 40sw buet tech to current 9mm bullet tech... unless of course in the last 30 years the 40sw has not had any advancements in bullet tech.
JoeB seeing as how consistent results are being achieved I don’t think that’s relevant. However, if you would supply me with a windshield for every test I wish to do..I will oblige...
People fail to realize anything else other than the power of the round. You can put more rounds of 9mm down range faster than you ever could with .40 10/10 times.
