A test of Botach Battle Steel Level IIIA Ballistic Flexible Panel as well as AR500 Rimelig and Hybrid level IIIA soft armor vs. Underwood Ammo Extreme Defender 65gr and 90gr +p 9mm
Mike Uman yup, im going to use up my 90gr loadings and replace them with the 65gr... This might just become my standard carry load. There is some new data out that suggests the wounding potential may exceed traditional HP ammo... If thats the case the Only draw back is cost and muzzle blast..almost rifle like..
@@7N6ballistics I would be very careful of accepting the "new data" if it's anything put out by Lehigh Defence, or any of the big-name RU-vidrs. I'm not saying that they're necessarily lying, or that the projectile doesn't perform well, but there _isn't_ really any reliable information that shows it wounds better than hollow points. There is information however that shows that it performed very well in gel, but that doesn't really tell us a whole lot. People who have used it on live targets, which are few and far between, such as hogs, and so on, say that it tends to perform more like a traditional ball ammunition, but often with the little bit better penetration. We live in the age of constant Internet advertising, so we have to consider that when Lehigh Defense designed this projectile, they did so specifically with characteristics to make it _look good_ in gel because they know that a lot of people use that as a criteria if they're going to carry something. Believe me, I really want it's to be the new Wonder around it somehow combines all the best capabilities of both, but the simple material and energy physics don't really stack up. A hollow point does its mean by mechanical cutting, in fact pretty much all of it. This alleged spiral jet cutting that the Lehigh Xtreme Defender round does, which is supposedly a result of very high pressure fluid motion as a result of The Notches cut in the bullet, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, certainly not from a pistol. You would need many times the velocity that could be produced in a handgun - rifle the velocity that could be produced in a handgun - in truth, standard rifle velocities - for that to even be a real possibility. otherwise, most signs seem to indicate that while it looks impressive in a block of clear gel, that cutting motion and "hydro static shock" (if you believe in that) in a real human being, would be pretty much negligible, and it best would create some very temporary wounding as the bullet travel, that would be almost immediately closed up through tissue pressure - in short, the final wound cavity would be not much larger than the caliber diameter, and bleeding would be considerably less than traditional hollow point, most likely resulting in longer incapacitation times. now, I don't claim to be a coroner or a battlefield medic, so take what I say with a grain of salt too, but I will continue to remain hopeful, but skeptical about this round.
Obergruppenführer John Smith nothing wrong with that. The info did not come from Lehigh or a youtuber. Hopefully I can come up with something that can shed light on the validity of the theory...gel isn’t an option.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug - Below is a video from full30 of a deer that was shot with the Xtreme Penetrator, which is less focused on wound channel and more so on penetration than the Defender series, and it was very impressive - the tissue was almost liquefied around the wound tract. The results speak for themselves and are simply not congruent with the supposed claims of "hogs being shot with these and producing FMJ-like wound channels" - all of which originated from Andrew @ "The Chopping Block" and "The Firearm Blog" who is a known hater of Lehigh and has yet to provide a single video to back up those claims. That said, if the day comes that he or anyone else can post evidence disproving what can clearly be seen in the video below then I'm certainly open to that as I have no bias and only want to carry what's most effective based on objective analysis, but I need evidence, not hearsay (especially from somebody like Andrew). For the time being, this is certainly pretty compelling and is enough for me to feel comfortable carrying them until something better comes along. www.full30.com/watch/MDA3Mzcz/underwood-xtreme-penetrators-vs-deer What I personally find most interesting though is that if you look at the scientific theory behind the fluid transfer monolith design, it's actually very similar to a military patent that was made a while back for a hydro-jet cutting tool. That said, I think you're confusing "hydrostatic shock" with the fluid transfer monolith function, which are two completely different things (hydrostatic shock has to do with ultra high velocity energy transfer that exceeds the elasticity of human tissue and causes extra tearing and bleeding as a result, and this simply has to do with displacement of fluid to cause extra tissue damage in lieu of the fact that it is a non-expanding projectile). The one caveat with these is that they do rely on the target having a high water content to be effective, though considering that the brain and heart are composed of 73% water, the lungs at 83%, and muscles and kidneys at 79%, I'd say that as long as you're not shooting at a dried-up dead animal and using that as your basis for testing, you should be in good shape. 😉
@@Laotzu.Goldbug There actually is from hog autopsies. It was from a pistol caliber carbine, but never the less it showed it stopped a hog fast, which is saying a lot. Paul Harrell also did a test on a meat target, albeit the 90 grain, and it performed very well. The downside with these rounds is the further you get away from attainable practice ammo, which the lightest tends to be 115gr, the more potential for deviation on point of impact. So the 65gr may offer the best ftlbs on target and armor penetration, but if its too far off POI of your practice ammo, that's useless as shot placement is still king.
excellent video. I bought the 65 +p ammo specifically because I suspected that it may penetrate 3a soft armor. I feel like this ammo in a PCC is an excellent choice for defense where soft armor is a possibility.
Thanks for this informative video! From their website i see the underwood 68 grain xtreme defender 9mm+p is rated at 489 ft-lbs of muzzle energy (1800 fps) which is more than the 90 grain +p rated at 435 ft -lbs(1475 fps) and even a bit more than the 90 grain +p+ which is rated at 480 ft-lbs (1550 fps).
How many rounds have you put through her? Problems with jamming, failure to feed? Ive heard that the recoil spring can jam the barrel against the slide causing serious difficulties due to spring being too weak to handle that load. Thanks Josh.
it takes +p ammo out of an mp5 to achieve the same velocity coming out of the .357sig! Before these tests came out, I always knew that the 65 grain defenders in .357sig would penetrate... And my friends thought i was loony. The FN 5.7 is history/
Underwood is some awesome stuff. I don't care if it didn't go through like the penetrator ammo does it would put a major hurt on your ribs and put you down if not out of commission.
Great video! Keep up the good work! I really enjoy 10mm content because there is a lack of decent content on the subject... Yours are some of the best I've seen on the subject.
10 mm is a beast terminator round it gos all way Thur llla boby armor heavy a 44 mag did not or 45 357sig all not true love 10 mm I found out it's best defensive round to
Liberty civil defense 9mm 50 grain +p has penetrated 3A armor out of 4in barrels because it's traveling at 2000fps. I like both that and the underwood just wish I could find them in stock! Great video
Interesting test, I'm a bit surprised that I've not run across your channel in the past, and I've watched many hundreds of tests in many different materials, last year I picked up a couple boxes of Underwood 9x19, 90gr XD +P & +P+ But I've not ran any yet, I have a few different defensive rounds, my current 9mm compact EDC round Is Federal LE 124gr+P HST, as an ex-LEO from back in the early 80s I carried the 357 Magnum and a small center-fire semi-auto for back up, 9mm rounds back then were pretty lame, Thanks for posting. 🇺🇸 subbed.
Kelby Edmonson unfortunately I have yet to see any verifiable evidence that its terminal performance matches the manufacturer claims..... If it does what they say cost would be the only major prohibiting factor... However I do find it strange that the manufacturer refuses to provide verifiable evidence to support the claims. That said, it is good at penetrating intervening barriers.
2100 FPS with a 65gr solid copper projectile definitely seems like perfect 9mm carbine ammo for the 21st century and is truly bridging the gap between a pistol and rifle, leaning more to rifle like performance being a lighter round and more velocity than a standard 9mm loading. Definitely interesting....it seems Fort Scott’s TUI rounds would be good for a carbine as would civil liberties 9mm loadings, it would be advantageous to get a comparison of these two loadings VS the Lehigh XP in a carbine to see how all three of these copper rounds perform in different scenarios, as I have always thought 9mm carbines/PCC’s could benefit from a new 21st century sub gun ammo and prove to be more effective!
The Underwood ammo 65gr XD in 357 Sig gets almost 2200 fps out of a threaded barrel in a G31. That would defeat this armor and still have plenty of energy left for the target.
@@chaimafaghet7343 the barrel is a factor on comfort so as the grip. You have a long barrel appendix carry the barrel will dig into your leg unless you carry at 12:00ish.
7:03 my compartment is positioned so that anything would have to pass through a multitude of other things, we have to assume the backpack isn't empty. Of course if you have textbooks then you have even more capability in terms of stopping 9mm, but I would be more interested in having the capability to stop a rifle round (not that pistol calibers aren't deadly).
I tend to avoid +p+ in the MP5…Im also a little cautious in some blow back PCCs….however the velocity of the +p exceeded the velocity of the +p+ offering from a pistol…depending on what you shoot it from you would unlikely see any difference.
Publicly accessable bullets that can penetrate these would be Fort Scott's 80gr TUI bullet. Load it yourself and expect well over 1500fps from a 4" barrel.
@@7N6ballistics what I mean is that you don't need to send the FSM bullet to over 1600fps, unlike the XD (which I carry, BTW) to get it to sail through these armors you have. The factory loading (1350fps from a 4" barrel) can defeat most of not all of these.
5:36 - 2'089 FPS!!! Holy shit how is that even possible?!? Thats an energy level (AT THE F-ING TARGET) of 630lbs! I will be looking for some of these to buy immediately for hunting hogs and deer with my HK Vp9 and Glock 19. Correction...Underwood makes the 9mm Xtreme Defender in a 68gr NOT 65gr. Which means that bullet traveling at 2,089fps delivered downrange energy of 660lbs! Even more impressive. Im wondering if the slightly longer barrel of the MP5 caused longer burn time for the powder which increases the velocity a bit.
I actually meant to order the 90 grain version but must have not been paying attention and ordered the 68 grain by mistake. Now I’m wondering if I should go through the trouble of trying to exchange these 68 gr for 90 gr? According to underwood the 68gr are higher velocity than the 90gr (1800fps vs 1475fps) and leave a larger wound channel in ballistic gel. However the 90gr do a little better when shooting through heavy barriers such as glass, wood, and sheet metal. I plan to load these rounds in my Sig p365 EDC and my full size night stand pistol. Should I try to exchange for 90gr or was getting the 68gr no mistake at all for self defense?
@@7N6ballistics only issue is, is that the 65/68gr version loses momentum (read: velocity) in tissue faster. So while the initial wound channel may be larger, overall it is similar or actually less. Joint ballistics research that was fine by Viper Weapons demonstrated that, yes, as velocity increased so did the sound channel. In 357Sig, they had both 90gr and 65gr versions to test against each other. While the 65gr version was clearly faster, the total wound channel was less due to lower penetration and likely faster wound channel tapering off. The advantage obviously is armor penetration on the 65/68gr offering.
@@calangel possibly. I would advise serious caution in taking anything from that “Joint ballistics” seriously. It was made up...their was no “joint agency” testing. It was a group of back yard folks with power points.....to date I haven’t seen any actual data to show whether or not the projectiles actually do what the manufacturers claim in actual human aggressors. The only thing that has been shown, and acknowledged is their ability to penetrate soft armor.
@@7N6ballistics the evidence that they create larger wound channels, just as VW started, comes from hunters. Your not gonna find them in RU-vid due to community guidelines, but I got links in the past that showed what these did in hunting situations. Definitely performed better than an FMJ, and the guy remarked how large the permanent disruption was. Neto from outdoors2020 was on one of the videos for the hunting trip. He does a lot of hunting and can vouch for their performance.
@@calangel I have seen some of those videos...most are using rifle loadings....which are on another level when compared to handguns...same goes for flat nosed hard cast. Basically the videos with handguns are subjective at best. While I have no doubt a semi wadcutter profile penetrating vitals is lethal, there is no comparison to conventional hollow points made. Its simply people saying...”yeah, I don’t think a hp would do that”. I find it very strange that Lehigh won’t release any actual evidence of the use of service caliber handguns and hunting. This concept dates back several decades...it isn’t new..the original patent was the “Devel Bullet”. The fact that VW has to make up the title “Joint Agency”, and then stick “unclassified” on the bottom of the power points is very suspect to say the least. I would view any claims about the wounding potential of these projectiles with skepticism. On the other hand they do penetrate well and should at least offer a semi wadcutter wound channel if the don’t actually do what is claimed. Remember...Lehigh claims a 2.5” permanent wound cavity from the .380.... I’m simply going to state...that is BS.
Good video, but I wonder if the test was affected at all by the backer. I realize we're getting into the nitpicking here, but most body armor is tested with a clay backer, for the reason that when you wear it your body allows at some level of absorption and flex, on your abdomen - your chest is not just a plate of Steel - and this makes it easier for the Kevlar to "catch" the projectile. If you put body armor over a really hard back or, like a sheet of metal say, it makes it _easier_ to penetrate then if you allowed it to have some movement ( you can see the same Phenomenon with a piece of paper - have someone hold it very Loosely at one end while you poke it, and then have them hold it with both hands very tightly and poke it with same amount of force. It will rip much more easily in the second case) Now, of course jugs of water aren't steel, but they are somewhat harder than block of ballistics gel or clay would be.
Obergruppenführer John Smith clay is used mainly to measure back face deformation. You can push inward on a water jug with just a finger, so I don’t think it would have had much affect...
I dispatched a hog with the 90 grain +p from a G19.. the pressure from the round actually protruded its left eyeball from the socket..he was dead right there ..very humane kill .. and after 12 hours on the smoker he was delicious..
7N6 I think that’s why the Lehigh defense design is a game changer for that caliber. Unlike the more prescriptive velocity envelope of a HP design, the fluidic transfer design actually benefits from the increased velocity
I sometimes wonder what it would be like if there were the 6.8x25 (straight wall), as this is probably the maximum weight a lead projectile with this diameter can be (one of the reasons why 9mm 65gr ammo is more expensive is or has to use lighter and more expensive materials or make a more complex construction, which also increases the price), besides would take up 25% less space than the 9mm, with the possibility of expanding the capacity by a third
I carry the 9 mm 90 grain plus P plus medical Glock 26 What really reduces the velocity down to the + p, and also the The amount of weight you reduce in your mag I was carrying the 147 grain HST. The difference of the weight of the bullet makes for easier carry of multiple mags
frank marks my spare mag is +p 65gr....still keep HST in the gun...unfortunately I haven’t been able to test the actual terminal effects of the XD line..and i have yet to find reliable/reputable information on them. Medical is never a bad idea...can be used for things other than gunfights..
Can you do this test against lvl 3 armor please? And also can you test the limit of the g9 77 gr apc round? They claim 3a but they charge double of the underwood.
TheNewGunner TRW probably pretty close to the 4.5”...possibly a bit more..but from what I’ve seen and tested..underwoods 9mm loads seem to hit advertised from a 4” bbl..other calibers...well it depends...that said I would expect to match the 4.5” with .357 sig. I really wish I had a way to test the wounding theory. I had planned on taking some deer this year, but unfortunately that fell through and I can’t find any reliable data on whether or not it actually does what they claim in living tissue that has the mass to absorb typical temp cavity..🤷♂️. However, it does a number on hard barriers and body armor..so thats an application...
Unlikely. It mirrors what I have seen with clay. In reality water is non compressible…. If you jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge..you might as well be hitting concrete.
@@ethanbarnes2549 they offer less penetration against this type of target...much lower velocity. Still good again older types of soft armor..but more modern materials will stop them.
@@ethanbarnes2549 There are other examples already on RU-vid, and I have tested them in the past. With product shortages the norm these days, I am not going to test what I already know, and has already been done on other channels. Speed is the most important factor when dealing with soft armor given how similar the projectiles are in other areas....as can easily be seen in this test. Hope you understand.
Eddie Archuleta seems to. No issues with reliability. I run factory threaded bbls on my guns. I need a thread protector anyways...might as well get something out of it. Ny thread patterns are metric, I have yet to have one loosen up...very easy to put on and take off.
@@7N6ballistics sorry added the extra + by accident. i did look into the ballistics of it out of a 16" barrel, 2284 fps with 787 ft/lbs of energy. that's a pretty mean round lol.
Even if they're wearing level III body armor, you hit someone with an Xtreme Defender, or Xtreme Penetrator they're going to go flying on their asses penetration, or not. That round is just going to plain old hurt.
@@oveidasinclair982 if you hit the sternum it will break and the bone fragments can cut the heart causing instant death. if you hit anywhere on the spine they will be paralyzed from at least the waist down
It’s possible...just have to get the velocities in the neighborhood of what was achieved in the video from whatever barrel length you are using. As for the more rigid plate...Probably not.
@@7N6ballistics yeah it won’t defeat hard armor that’s for sure. I had a dick protector I apparently didn’t turn in when I got out took out the Kevlar shot it with the 90gr +p+ from a 92fs compact and a scorpion evo it went through didn’t test it on anything else and not really sure if that Kevlar was good it had a rough life.
@@TacticalPeace I would suspect the +p would go through that as well...armor tech is changing rapidly...all of these rounds exceed nij level 3a...DOD standards are actually different....
7N6 There is a point, it is cheaper. If your weapon has a submachine gun length barrel like the MP5, and you need about 10 boxes of ammunition just to fill your magazines, that’s about a $100 difference. Worth it if it’s necessary to defeat the armor, but maybe not so much if the cheaper stuff can do it.
7N6 And I would agree if you were talking about testing it out of the G19, or if the lesser armor stopped the 90 grain, but it didn’t, it still got through, there is not enough data to know if the 90 grain would penetrate the hybrid armor out of the MP5, we know it won’t out of the pistol, but that does not inform us on the MP5.
@@cplinstructor you didnt watch the full video did u? I am not going to waste my armor to show what the lesser panel already proved.... velocity is key to getting through this type of armor...given similar bullet construction... The 65gr perforated the lesser armor even from the g26 because of its velocity...the mp5 90gr did not...therefore you can logically conclude that if the hybrid stopped the g19 65gr...it will easily stop the mp5 90gr.
At the date of this video it was 65gr. A new manufacturing process was developed lowering cost and for whatever reason the weight was changed to 68gr in current production.
@@wackyguyoverthirty it relies on tumbling…which brings 2 issues…. The projectile is not that long and its pointed…the wound profile will mimic the profile of the projectile in whatever orientation it is in… Ie point first…base first..or sideways…. None of which are all that much larger than a regular FMJ…in fact it may be smaller than a comparable FMJ even during its sideways travel.. It also tumbles at varying depths…. All of this adds up to unreliable performance. Many people believe tumbling has special terminal effect…in reality it is similar to a projectile expanding…but only during the portion it travels sideways…. In a rifle round this can have noticeable effect as projectiles are typically long for caliber…and velocity is much higher. At handgun velocity, and with a stubby projectile this effect is simply not comparable….
@7N6 ok, I get your point now, thanks for the breakdown. Now I wait for a sale on the +p 68 gr for testing out of my Hellcat Pro with 4.4 inch barrel. 🤗
@@andycraig6905 yup, that’s the issue…for what a handgun is used for…its just too limited in application. Personally I think G9 currently has the most effective design in regard to “solid” projectiles.
Don't day you're sorry when you're clean not it's just a disingenuous response. Add something worth saying to the community. You could've saved the time, and not bothered to type that crap at all and just move on to the next video. You need time to explain these situations. Us serious community members want the who, what, when, where, how and why! We want as much science as possible. Your life is on the line, pfft too long. The man clearly had something to say that was worthwhile. He didn't tout 14 mins straight of personal opinion like many do. He just showed you the down right flat out results with 0 bias. Anyone that can explain any round in 5 mins or less, be weary of the information received.
@Swamp Henly The man put time effort and energy into this and this ungrateful bastard says that crap. Remeber the time we couldn't click a video and get this type of information? If you lived North you damn sure wasn't getting this information and those that lived South had to know a guy. Now you can sit in your freaking underwear in your home while watching the kids and learn this stuff. Yet, here comes this ungrateful bastard talking crap.
