I used to be a housing support worker and I would sometimes have clients who wouldn’t access a food bank because of shame. So I would volunteer to go for them, with my ID on as proxy. It was on this huge hill and I was heavily pregnant. I asked if I could take two trips to come back and get the rest and let them know I would be right back. One of the volunteers (it wasn’t LDS but a Christian denomination ) said kind of under her breath to me that that was the least of my problems. I was so in shock that she would say such an awful thing to me and then I realised she didn’t recognise that I was a worker picking it up for someone and that she thought she was shaming a heavily pregnant woman accessing food. I should have lost it but I was so taken aback I got in my car and bawled. No one should EVER feel shame for accessing food support. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. My manager didn’t like that I would pick food up for people but I was adamant that accessing the food bank should never even factor in whether someone is mentally up for that experience.
The whole shaming thing for people in need, is cruel. My single mom was on Food Stamps for one year when I was 3. The state treated her so badly and even people in grocery stores, it marked her for life. In my mind, it is not ‘charitable’ giving if you expect something in return (like free advertisement or public acknowledgement) or the shame of the person you are giving to. Thank you for sharing this, Maven. And thank you for your words, Jen. It seems so ridiculous that a multi-billion $ organization expects their poor members to give them 10% of their earnings. Maven, you paid into this ‘insurance’.
The pregnancy topic hit hard. I didn’t want any more children after our third, but my wife always had that messaging in church that “there are spirits who would be better off born to good mormon families”. Five years after our third she got pregnant with our fourth because we just stopped trying to prevent pregnancy, and as these things naturally happen, boom, pregnant. Her fourth pregnancy was horrible and her hormones got so out of whack. After giving birth, her vision changed (after 35 years of perfect sight) and now she needs glasses, which devastated her. Now she has bruxism and migranes, rosacea and so much more physical and psychological damage due to stress because our fourh was such a challenging, sickness probe baby. She even had suicidal ideation at times, nothing I could do or say could help her depression many times. We absolutely adore all our kids but now that we’ve left the church, we realize that having more and more babies is NOT a good decision for everyone. If it has not been for the incessant messaging during our lifetimes about having kids and “bringing spirits to the earth”, we never would have had so many children and my wife’s health and quality of life would be sooo much better. We’d be more financially independent, less in debt, my wife could have gotten her own education and career instead of feeling trapped by having had so many children. It is a total mind-effer to think that the church and its indoctrination and messaging around this has affected our lives in this way. And having kids is a lifetime comittment, not something you can change once you realize that the church and its truth claims is all bull$hit! Ugh!
I'm so sorry! The myriad of ways the Church's doctrines cause so much harm to families despite claiming to be a family-oriented Church is astounding. And despite seeming to value children so much, they don't seem to care about the types of parents or the resources those parents will have for those children. I don't know how many times I've heard members reduce any and all reasons, no matter how legitimate or valid, for someone NOT to have children to mere "inconvenience" to insinuate that it's just selfishness and there is no legitimate reason. We're talking about the creation of another human being who will be extremely vulnerable and need a LOT of resources to grow up into a healthy, happy, contributing member of society. And to think that, at the very minimum, a child should come into the world having been genuinely wanted by its parents rather than out of obligation or duty against one or both parent's wishes, is too HIGH of a standard for many religious teachings to reach or is too radical is pretty sobering.
Thanks. I had 4 kids and was in the LDS mindset. After my husband didn't want more children. He avoided sexual intercourse. .. at all costs. He did oral sex on me. It became so routine and non romantic for me. I found his pornography. I was upset and I wrote to an inmate. Sounds weird but I was not able to relate my needs. Eventually I left. I lost my kids and everything. Looking back I think he was autistic. I don't think he could love me back. Handsome yes. Romantic? Not a drop of red blood!
Sounds like your wife had postnatal depression related to multiple births. The hormonal shift after one birth is tremendous let alone 4 births. Then there's the physical & financial & mental strain parenthood entails. Sounds like you made an excellent decision as a family to leave Mormonism.
As someone who is greysexual/demi and also has ADHD (possibly autism) I NEEDED this. Thank you so much Maven for offering your perspectives. One of my fav MS episodes
A very high percentage of neurodivergent adults identify as part of the LGBTQ A+ communities. The more we understand about ourselves, the more we can walk through life connected, contented, and enjoying all the good things it has to offer.
I have depression, and I was living the best Mormon life I could, and still felt like I couldn't be myself at church . I'm not a "debie downer" but I felt like whenever I was at church, that I had to put a smile on my face and pretend to be happy because, "The church is suppose to bring you joy!" If I wasn't smiling, people would ask what was wrong, and if I was already having a crappy day dealing with my depression, and I would talk about anything but happy things, people would get turned off and walk away. Nobody truly wanted to listen to how I was honestly feeling at the moment. I was searching for what toxic things to get rid of in my life, and that's what started me on my journey out of the church. I realized the church was very toxic, and just brought more anxiety and depression to my life. When I left about a year ago, it was almost instantly that my anxiety left. Still have depression, but is a lot more manageable now that I'm out!
I understand. Literally every aspect of my mental health has improved being out, and it wasn't something I was seeking or expecting at all. I felt I was at a baseline happiness before considering my circumstances etc. But outside of episodes of grief, regret, or anger I feel when reflecting on the harm caused to me and other people, all my emotions are lighter and less encumbered. I feel like my brain got both a factory reset and a software upgrade removing all the junk malware/bloatware/spyware that was slowing everything down before. Because I had been so used to how weighed down everything was on the previous model, it was all the more amazing to me how much easier and efficient the new model is without all that extra junk!
This interview absolutely nails one of the biggest reasons I left the church-- the lack of empathy in the Mormon system. The church is gross when it comes to empathy for charity, empathy for women and the challenges with our bodies, all of it.
I can't think of a better name than "Maven". She is the essence of a well-educated; sincere, and caring person. The shock for me was her experience with the bishop's food pantry. You must listen to it in her own words to get the full effect. My heart goes out to her. She is perfect for Mormon Discussions She has taken over background technical issues and has made that Mormon Discussions exponentially better. She is a real diamond in the rough who gets more confident as time goes by. I am so happy she is in the fold of post Mormon podcasts. You well loved Maven. An example of a person has survived the high demand religion and has become her own person. big hug
As a never Mormon, I often hear Mormons say “well we pay tithings to the church because it helps people” so to hear the absolute shame that was put on a woman who has fallen on hard times for seeking the bare minimum: FOOD is horrible. I’m glad she was treated like a responsible, worthy, worthwhile human being in the other non LDS pantry.
Don't forget that in the conservative mind, poverty is always associated with poor life choices, lack of work ethic, substance abuse, and the breakdown of families.
As an LDS man who never got married, I can relate in a lot of ways to Maven's experiences. I often got the impression from other LDS people that a woman is sort of like a tomato- they're all pretty much the same, just go to the store and get one! Another very common LDS idea that Maven alluded to that has been taught by leaders is that ANY righteous Mormon man ought to be compatible with ANY righteous LDS woman. What nonsense. One consideration you will never hear from church leaders and teachers is that you should find a spouse with whom you are intellectually compatible.
2:42:20 “she’s asking you ‘how did you die’” wow that hit me like a truck. this is exactly how i know my parents would think if they found out my deconstruction. really puts into words what i try to say when people ask why i haven’t told them. it’d hurt them, it’d be like a death to them in a way. thank you so much for telling your story, maven. this has been so moving and put so much into words for me ❤💔
Maven's story was riveting. There are so many things I related to, from the shock of the sexism in the temple to the problems growing up in the church in a family that was not living a middle-class lifestyle. (So many of the church's values are about presenting yourself as middle class, from not getting multiple piercings or tattoos to their interpretation of modesty. The values I was taught in Young Women were largely about cultivating a certain brand of middle-class femininity in your appearance and your home, and that was profoundly at odds with the brand of Mormonism my family was practicing, which had an extreme ascetic bent. So I totally get wanting desperately to have a normal home with beige walls and a picture on the wall.) Thanks for being vulnerable.
I relate to this more than any other mormon story. Im a guy, and for years i spent years embarrassed for never wanting to kiss or have sex with anyone when people all around me bragged about their "stats". I felt like less of a person, and like needed to "get it over with" so i could be normal. I have learned after a few soul-searching years that a persons value, and identity, should not be judged based on something that we dont have a choice over. I feel like this story is very important, thank you for your courage in sharing your story!
I have several family members who never married or date. To be completely honest, it felt confusing. The world is just now coming to understand asexuality. Thankfully, you will be able to live a happy life, with a lot less confusion
Maven, Thank You for being so vulnerable! 🖤🤍💜 Your story is so inspiring and I identify with you in so many ways. I loved my Cultural Anthropology class and took it as a TBM. It was the beginning of opening up my little narrow mormon mind which began my questioning and ultimately my road away from my religious conditioning and toward an accepting, respectful, and loving view of all, no matter their beliefs or background.
Maven, you are so strong and such an interesting woman. Thank you so much for being brave enough to share your story with us! I am in awe of your strength and everything you have overcome. I don't even know you and I proud of you!
This is powerful and relatable. As a person raised Evangelical Christian this is both affirming to me and revelatory about the experience of women in fundamentalist groups.
Thank you, Maven. Thank you, John. Thank you, Jenna. This is such a gift. At 70 I walked this journey alone without the wonderful community that exists here and on other channels. Anothrr aspect of this subject is that all men have also been abused and are victims of this messed of system.
She is so authentic and as a fellow ADHD’er, that resonates with me. The need to be authentic and the knowledge that being married may cause you to have to accept things that aren’t within her ethical sense. She really is ethically minded. And after 15 yrs having been married in a narcissistic relationship seems to be similar in that you feel bad taking up space at all. I think she is awesome as is!
What a great point Maven made about "The one thing men can't do is what they try to convince women is the only thing they can do, to the detriment of all the women."
Amazing episode! Thank you Maven for being so sweet and telling your story! It's so hard being out of the church (after learning the truth/reading the CES letter) while my parents were still in it, and being told by my dad to "not rock the boat" and keep quiet. My dad actualy stopped treatment for his cancer so he could "help his girls get back to the church from the other side!" He passed in Feb 2023, and I know he is not a Mormon in heaven. But my mom is still pushing. It's all so crazy. Such a sweet teatimony that "I know the church ISN'T true."
Maven you are my new hero! I hope to hear from you again on Mormon Stories. You have shown your humanity in a way that is vulnerable and precious. I am in my late sixties dealing with some of the same kinds of experiences you have described. I am in ongoing conversations with NM friends, trying to describe the puzzle of being enmeshed in beliefs that cripple women. By putting words to your experiences, you have helped me to get past the notion that having internalized ideas and attitudes from our church authorities/and applied through our ward members, meant that I was the one who was wrong. My intuition was screaming, "Something is not right here!" You have built a "trellis" for us to grow beyond our fears and limiting beliefs in the church. No experience is wasted. I am looking forward to my future, already enriched with possibility. I would treasure a conversation with you!
I had a date with a Utah girl that wouldn't stop crying during the date. She was upset that she had sex with a previous date, and that I wouldn't want her because she's not "pure" anymore. I didn't care, but she kept acting like she lost the opportunity to have a guy like me in her life because she wasn't pure. It was crazy.
Articulate, thoughtful, intelligent & brave. You are amazing Maven. I can tell your story will ruminate in my brain for a long time. Thank you so much for sharing it with me. ❤️
Thank you for your honesty and openness. This was a great interview. The information about getting food help from the church was very upsetting. I’ll definitely donate to the other place you mentioned.
As an asexual, I feel like no one every really gets it. It’s frustrating and isolating. I have never experienced sexual attract to another person or a desire to masturbate. There can be pleasure in masturbating cuz your private parts do work, but it has nothing to do with fantasies or being turned on by anyone. I tried it for awhile but I don’t care for it. I have crushes and romantic feelings. There are greyaces or demosexuals which mean they can have attraction to others but it’s rare or special case (as I understand). Thanks for sharing your experience Maven. It’s always nice to hear another asexuals experience.
I am 56 yrs old and a widow my husband and I went to church an did everything asked,with covid we went under,so when he died I was left homeless not by choice,I went to our Bishop and was turned away,have been turned away by all agencies with heart disease,severe anx,ptsd,severe gepression,deg disc disease,cateracts,I am still homeless waiting on disability,St.George is horrible for this, I was being punished for not giving my husbands memorial service money to the church and wasn't even offered so much as a jnar of peanut butter and still have not,the relief society president loves right across from the park I am living in,there is definitely something wring with me,I guess I deserve this
We ran out of money December 2020 after months of my husband being at 80% salary due to COVID for months. When we went to the ward to get a Bishops Storehouse food order (in Alberta, Canada) and my experience was very similar. It was over the phone (due to COVID) with my RS president, who was mostly plant based as well. And our bishops storehouse isn't in Utah or even the US so ours is filled with grocery store surplus and not anything made specifically for it. Even then, there weren't non dairy milks or anything like that because every item had to be common enough for most people to order it. Luckily we weren't at zero money, and we got a lot of help with Christmas food and gift money. But we also ran out of money faster (and when we did, December, vs into the next year) because we were paying tithing. I only left the church in the last month, bit even at the time I didn't like the feelings involved in getting the food orders. Going through layers, and not a lot of options, and being asked "Did you ask everyone else for help first" really hit me again when you said it
I dealt with the same issue when I asked for food assistance years ago. I’ve given too much money to the church and can’t get ahead and I’m getting older. I can’t prioritize a multi-billion-dollar church over my own needs anymore.
It’s really despicable, actually. They shame people for needing help with basic sustenance, while at the same they take your money for decades and don’t even have to tell you what they do with it. Maybe members should ask the church: What are you doing with my hard-earned money? Oh, you want to build a mall? Did you try to get funds from elsewhere before taking my money?
Maven, you went deep deep deep. Love your insights. MS / OSF is a platform like no other. THANK YOU. Going this deep means a lot to a lot of us. I’m so grateful.
I really appreciated you sharing your story, Maven. You are a talented communicator about the most difficult and innermost feelings. Thank you so much.
Substance is what makes a personal connection: depth in conversations, shared interests, common goals, being authentic, kind and loving, mutual respect. It is hard to find a match unless one is given the opportunity to really go out and meet people without an agenda.
It's been 7 years since I lost belief in the church/deity but I've been diligently trying not to rock the boat since then (mostly becuse I'm married with 3 children and because my family is comprised of mostly believers) and there's so much I haven't even begun to process. Maven's thoughts and experiences have destabilized the floor under my feet a bit, but I don't think that would be the case if I wasn't ready to concede the trauma that I've endured and the profound effect it's had on me. I hope I can be brave and begin to face all these things and learn to love myself and heal myself. Thank you Maven for your willingness to be vulnerable and open in a public way. I can't imagine how exhausting it must be to relive some of those memories and experiences. Your efforts are so worthwhile and appreciated.
Lots of insight! Maven: "What's wrong with me!? I'm broken. I'm not normal. I'm SUPPOSED TO want these things." 😢 The church teaches us that we SHOULD be happy to do "abc" and SHOULDN'T want anything to do with "def." This applies to many areas within mormonism, particularly with those who aren't white cis men, but with them, as well. No wonder we get so messed up!
The story about the Bishop's storehouse made me SO angry. Expletives were streaming. As a single, college educated woman who was raised in the church and went to BYU and handicapped her career choices so that they would align with being a wife and mother and who also struggled with severe depression, anxiety, and undiagnosed ADHD, who also felt like she didn't actually earn her degree, who also has put off medical care because of cost, so much of this story hits hard. The ONLY reason I didn't have to go to my bishop for help was because my parents were able to help. I mean for goodness sakes. It's astounding how un-Christ-like a church is that throws a temper tantrum when their nickname is used because they want to be aligned with Christ. Thank you Maven for sharing your story! I've had to pause many times because of the emotions.
@@amazinmaven I had my dark time about 5 years ago but I am doing amazing now! In a career that I love and that can support me and my dogs 😁 But it's only been in the last year that I've realized how many other women have had to go through so many of the same things and it's so healing to hear your story and realize how normal my thoughts, feelings, and actions were when I was struggling. Much love from AZ 💜
Hi Maven. I really appreciate you sharing your story. It helped me realize why I listen to other people's stories. You put things into words that I could feel but not explain. I found my faith crisis through biblical scholarship as well. Thanks for helping me not feel alone in that!
The Bishop’s Storehouse part of the story… oh my word! 😭😭😭 as a kid who grew up in poverty, I frequented food banks and that story was just too close to home for me. 💔 thank you for your vulnerability, Maven!
I was completely blown away by this woman and her story. For all of those TBMers out there who think that The Church does absolutely no harm to anyone, watch and learn.
Dear Maven, the church has done a terrible tap dance on your soul! Whatever you are comfortable with is what you are! Do not assume you are less than, just because you don't like the cookie cutter ideas the church gives out. They can never push everyone into the same mould! Your shape is perfect just the way it is! Not sure yet whether or not you've left the church, but I highly recommend that. Life only became bearable for me after leaving behind the humiliating and unrealistic expectations that the LDS church promotes. Be free!
I've been watching and listening to Maven from the beginning and I have seen much growth since she started with Bill and RFM. She is so sweet and has so much to offer the world! I can't wait to hear more from her! I share her aspirations to be courageous and make a difference in the world and she is doing that!
Dear Maven, I don’t think you lost spirituality, I think that you finally found it. Once you gave up doctrines and control by leaving the “church”, you were free to find the spirituality that’s god granted and not granted by a bishop. God loves all his children and he made them in all kind of different ways. You are loved and a brave and free spirit!
Omg, so grateful for this episode, especially the understanding of being ace. I’m still trying to understand myself but hearing this story and the resources cited is so helpful. Thank you!
Wow! What a powerful episode! I said it on the last episode but I really needed this! There are so many words and echoes of my own experience and feelings. I don't think we highlight how toxic Mormonism is for Single Adults, especially women and the pressure to get married. So thank you for touching on that. I still get a lot out of interviews with couples but it's nice to hear from a single for once! Thank you again/also for bringing attention to asexuality. I'm on a different side of the Ace spectrum from Maven and yet I still relate to so much of her experience. It was really validating to me to hear. And I want to offer a virtual hug of solidarity. I have been surprised at the number of ace exmos on r/exmormon. Thank you all again for this amazing podcast and Maven for being such an incredible human! This was so helpful for me, I need more like this! Keep up the solid work! And btw I would adore a Maven podcast!
Ohh Maven, that loss of God. That is sooo painful. I remember, during my faith crisis where I was discovering that I didn't believe in the church anymore, I always had that one part of my testimony still: that god was my father and that he loved me. No matter what form he took on. And then, I think I was also starting to listen to Jimmy Snow and Telltale around this time, and I eventually just thought to myself: what if god isn't real at all? And as that sunk in, that that is totally possible, it hit SO HARD. And I just..bawled. I bawled my eyes out. Because like you, my foundation slipped, and I had nothing. And the nihilism kicked in so hard. So I had to stop listening to atheist stuff for awhile because I felt so hopeless. I got into new age stuff for awhile but that can be equally as culty as the church. So now I'm somewhere inbetween, I think. I don't particularly believe in anything but I'm open to the idea. I'm so grateful you shared this part of your story because sometimes I forget about it. About how hard that was. Much love to you, and all of you out there who are grappling with this, too. Faith crises are not fun. I'm so glad I went through mine, and I feel more free and authentic than ever. That tank top does help ;) hehe. But it's still not something I would wish on anyone. And I discovered that as I have listened to MSP, and how John talks about informed consent and how Carah talked about not wishing a faith crisis on people. I realized that oh my gosh, I DON'T want people to experience this pain if they feel like they're already living an authentic life.
Jens empathy is so beautiful! Ive really enjoyed having her on the show! You are so appreciated and loved Jen!! Keep bringing your heart and insight ❤️❤️
The closing thoughts about her mission made me realize, why do members expect better treatment from the church than what people in the mission field get? I mean specifically in regards to time and attention given. Those people in the mission field count when they match with/are interested in what they're hearing from the church, comply/obey/change and get baptized. The top-down dictate to missionaries regarding everyone else who isn't interested is, "Testify and move on." Any struggling or unbelieving or members in faith crisis get the same treatment--they are testified to, and then get left alone, up to and including their excommunications.
This is heartbreaking and charming. It’s insightful and informative. Entertaining and emotional. I love your story and have so much respect for you and your strength. Thank you so much for sharing. Nevermo from Canada who adores hearing these experiences so foreign from mine ❤️
Agreed. From looking it up, getting there, sitting in the parking lot, waiting your turn to be seen for the first time to talk about your needs, etc etc etc
Women and childbearing at 2:28:32. Kate Bolick's book Spinster deals with this issue. She talks of how her mother wished she had waiting at least five more years for marriage and motherhood. But in the 1960s that was the expectation. Another thing not really discussed in the case of motherhood among LDS women is the toll it takes on the body. Remember the LDS culture of the past meant many women had 7 kids or more. Some even died in childbirth.
The shaming the church does in the "welfare" program is horrific. It's like they don't believe their own stuff, cause the way they do it is so against Mosiah 4:16-18. It's disgusting to shame people who are in need and make them feel less than and small. I've been fortunate in my adult life to not have needed help, but I've always thought that the church is the last place I'd turn if I did because I'd seen how it was when I was a kid and our family did need help. Maven, I'm so sorry you had to deal with that on top of the stress and worry inherent to being in poverty. The negative assumptions people make about the poor pisses me off, too. The thing with a rule about not getting help from two sources cause you might turn around and sell some of it - ugh. Poor ≠ dishonest thief and it just makes me so angry that people who want to claim to be followers of Christ would treat people that way.
At min 1:44.30......I have never felt more seen. At age 38 I finally realized I could be a mom (a lifelong dream) without having a husband, and I decided to pick a sperm donor and have my daughter......rephrase.....plan my family as a single mom by choice. I also became a foster mom and adopted 2 siblings from foster care. We are now a family of 4, we are whole just the way we are. My cery Evangelical parents can't wrap their brains around it, but I don't care anymore. I am finally living my true and authentic life, living out my purpose, and I've never been happier. I was married and divorced 3 times before I figured out that I don't need a husband or even any kind of partner, to have a while family. A late gift, but it came just in time. ❤
When the church gives assistance to those in need, did you say that the people are expected to do something for the church for repayment? It is not teaching God's grace which does not need any repayment.
1: One of the best episodes of Mormon Stories. Heartbreaking, inspirational, and fascinating. 2: Startling that Maven didn't seem to think that men could be asexual (or that the option was to marry a gay man, but not an asexual man).
I did think it was possible for a man to have less libido, but the gay man route seemed a more sure, safer bet sex wouldn't be demanded from me. I wasn't very aware of asexuality then.
@@amazinmaven Seems like the Church teaches that men will always be wanting to have sex. Even men with same sex attraction. And women aren’t really supposed to enjoy sex anyway. But will still enjoy kissing and petting.
I wonder also if it would ever ever be possible to "find" an asexual man inside of the LDS church. Like as hard as it would be to find a gay man who would be up for such a proposition, how would you find an asexual man in a religion where you're not really allowed to discuss sexual topics much at all. (I'm a nevermo but grew up in a strict religion that had similar restrictions on sexuality)
@@lc5666 Right! One of the biggest and most obvious problems is that because we are so easily in line with the teachings that we can literally not know it about ourselves. Especially when we're younger. I made it took me almost an entire decade to even get to the point where I truly understood that there was something fundamentally different about my life experience then what was going on for everybody else. I imagine many aces in purity cultures really have no idea until it's too late unfortunately
Graduating from Mormonism at 2:05:56. RFM uses this term for when you leave the church and have the epiphany that the church is not true. An additional step is either believing in God or becoming an atheist. There is a grieving process because you are leaving after spending a lifetime in the church. The identity factor Maven describes is what people from other high demand faiths experience. Ultra-Orthodox Jews also face that when they leave their community. Similar with JWs. The "who am I?" question is natural.
Hi! Love your channel! I was thinking about starting a channel as a "Masked Mormon" as well but I when I saw your channel I was like, "Aw, beat me to it." Love the Princess Bride reference at the beginning too!
@@amazinmaven I am glad you are enjoying it. It has been fun learning how to do all of this. As I was figuring out which mask I was going to go with, I realized that the one I chose looked like Wesley, and I couldn't un-see it!
This makes me sad to hear the insecurity in her voice about what she has to offer to the world in regard to a vocation. Mormons do not prepare their women for anything but being a wife and mother. It is not fair. It is abusive and disheartening. The best years for finding this out is in the young adulthood and the church sends them out in the world for the benefit of the church not to find out more about their own needs and desires. It is a shame.
I got married at 20 with a man that had been married before. We were married for 10 years and had 4 kids. Then he came out as gay and he Said he had known since he was 14. I wish he or others around me who knew about this would have said something so I would have a choice to marry him with informed concent. You should never make anyone think that inter sexual marriage is the right thing to do. I was very hurt by this and my children too. Honesty needs to be more imoportant than doing ”the right thing”.
