Chaos is a ladder... but to where? ASOIAF Theory Analysis (Part III) 

I certainly agree! I feel like even if my more tinfoil thought of him killing hoster with poison isn't true I think that the idea of petty revenge is going to be shown to be driving him in the book series. Next video im gonna go over what I think are the inspirations for LF and how a revenge motive fits him into the over all story so I hope to be able to further illustrate it there as well.

Thank you on both counts! And to you as well, I saw you passed the 1k count a few days ago. Looking forward to your next video, I actually just downloaded the audiobook of The Dragon Bone Chair from Memory Sorrow and Thorn because I was so intrigued after watching your Stanis Stormking video. Gonna start that tonight.

I hope Littlefinger gets a good dose of the harrenhall curse. He's trying to bang the daughter of the one that got away... just.. ew

Idk how to edit RU-vid comments. (Edit:you convinced me, put a lot more thought into this character than I had, after all we already know he had lysa poison jon Ayrin. That's his M.O. but I still stand by my original comment. I guess it's true what they say "you die a hero or live long enough to become a villian"

Thank you!! I actually added that last min, didn't even know if anyone would see XD

Thank you! Pleased you enjoyed!

That makes glad to hear, I hope that it was worth the wait!

I think LF is so cool partly cuz of exactly what you're describing, grrm knows how to make a human villian like one you'd almost want to root for or have sympathy for, but also one that its impossible to have those things for.. great character imo

Bad bellies and other illness that are hard to pin down do certainly seem to be great ways of covering up murders. It really easy to just say "oh they died of a bad belly" in a world where no one know anything about medicine except a special order that even still only kind sorta knows about medicine lol

@@randominternetguyoffical I mean I just thought Tully died naturally. I didn't question it at all. But you just made too much sense. Why wouldn't little finger kill him? Never questioned it. Why wouldn't Lisa visit her dying father.....never questioned it. This was a good video, it was really thought provoking. And I think this series is a nice antidote to the assumptions fans make out to be fact.

@@zachbarker497 I stoked that you found it thought provoking. I went though a whole process myself of going down this rabbithole and at the then end it made sense to me, but I wasn't sure it would make sense to anyone else. So I'm really pleased and vindicated to hear that. LF is one of my favorite characters too so I wanted to do what I see as his full story justice.

This is certainly what I believe. I'm gonna elaborate in the upcoming part but I think he is very concerned with how other view him and what they perceive his goals are. After all in his words, once you know what a man wants you can move him... LF keeps himself from being moved by convincing others his motives and needs cant be discerned or worse, aren't there and he's just acting out of "chaos"

I tried to clear that up by linking to the maester Kym section on the wiki in a pinned comment lol Realized I forgot to explain that there is a listed maester who made the moon tea and then died at some point before Vyman came.

XD XD XD

it is tinfoil to be sure, but its also perfect and very GRRM and I think thats why its worth thinking on. Glad you enjoyed the video, hope to hear your thoughts on part 4 when it comes out.

Indeed it does, glad you've enjoyed the journey so far!

It's great with morning tea!

I believe he did try to kill bran, or rather just sent the Cats Paw to Winterfell to kill, whatever child Stark he could and poor Bran chanced to fall. The Cats Paw was already there with the Lens arriving with the, The letter and the blame of the Lannisters, final piece was to just do a murder to kick it all off. (I also am guessing LF has an agent there at Winterfell.. Darkest theory I have is that is the Steward Poole 0_0...) I intend to address this is part 4, I was trying to pack it all in but it got to be too much lol But tldr, yes I agree LF had to be the one sending the Cats Paw

Glad you enjoyed the video and the thoughts in any case, hopefully GRRM gets an answer to us in the future!

@@randominternetguyoffical what I mean is, I'm not really sure how all this could really be explained. It can be more heavily implied later, but Littlefinger really isn't one to talk much about stuff he's done in the past. That being said, any idea what you're gonna tackle next?

@@tfraenckel After part 4 I have a few ideas so I may put it to a vote or I may just go for one if I really feel like it lol Theres quite a few ice and Fire things worth talking about and HOTD is coming so maybe chat about that down the road too

Thank you! Gonna be doin a special today to celebrate!

Really glad you enjoyed it!

Glad you liked the video! I really wanted to bring some sense to Littleifinger as he's one of my favorite characters

That's interesting, I think I'm probably getting the worst takes on the joker that are kinda the colloquial standard if you will. A joker with motivations to create chaos would make much more sense. Is this more how his written in comics?

@@randominternetguyoffical He kind of varies from Bad Guy Q to mastermind with... Eccentricities to quasi-cosmic horror serial killer. The "agent of chaos" take is kind of Chrsitopher Nolan taking the Q angle and... Nolaning it up a smidge.

@@MrSilvUr I think Nolan's Joker is a mastermind in his own right. His ultimate goal is the moral corruption of Gotham and uses "chaos" to accomplish it. The scene where he calls himself an agent of chaos is also where he blatantly lies to Harvey Dent and says he's not a schemer when he's clearly the biggest schemer in the movie.

@@randominternetguyoffical It varies, but ultimately most if not all Jokers share a desire to mentally and emotionally corrupt everyone around him. The reason he's so obsessed with Batman is because Batman represents that moral steadfastness that Joker despises and wants to destroy.

I hope it was worth the wait!

Really glad you enjoyed the video! Looking forward to hearing your final thoughts a t the end of the series too. I'm gonna try to lay out the full (as I see it) Littlefinger timeline in part 4 and talk about some character origins in GRRMS works and a Wildcards influence 0_0

@@randominternetguyoffical Oh, God, I've never read Wildcards! Yet I'm still looking forward to watching part 4. There is also one thing that bothered me for some time. When we read ASIOAF: how come Catherine never knew about her sister's pregnancy and abortion? She clearly has no idea about it! And she is completely deluded by Littlefinger. Wasn't Roderik Cassel aware that LF bragged about deflowering Catherine? How is it possible this gossip never reached Catherine, if people in her own household knew this? And Littlefinger running brothels... how come she never thought that her childhood friend might have changed a little... I mean, he used to be a daydreamer, but now he is a pimp...

How would Lysa poison her father in the Riverlands from Kings landing/ the eyrie

@@ackidack In my mind LF would arrange for the relatively innocuous ingredients to be added to food or drink slowly through a servant, or other easy to persuade with coin individual... Granted it is the big hurdle to the idea, but we do see GOT open with a Cats Paw that takes on a way more dangerous task for what we come to learn is not mega great pay. Lets say you're a poor cook in Riverrun and a rando in a cloak that KF has paid to carry a message offers you one Stag a week to drop something into Hosters morning food... do you turn him down? How about 2 Stags, how about 3? We see over and over again the lower classes in the dubious and secretive employ of the upper classes as they do their various Throne Games and assassinations. Varys seems to be the only one to "make" his informers. Everyone else uses existing small folk. So my best theory is that it was a servant, maybe even on LF knew from his childhood. I see this as equally likely as the Cats Paw in Winterfell existing, and the Cats Paw in Winterfell did exist...lol

@@ackidack ​ @axel dean She (or Littlefinger ) could have servant working for her (or him) there. We truly don't know how many people indeed serve LF. I'm referring to his history of hiring Kettleblacks, when he said to Alayne/ Sansa: „Tell me, Alayne, - which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never ever see?"

Really glad that you liked the way I put together the videos! I like to think that I can be funny 😂

Gonna have to do a 1000subs thing 0_0 Thanks again for helping me kick around thoughts about the video!

@@randominternetguyoffical For shizzle.

Thank you!

The old maester hes referring to is named Kym in the references and I think once in text. The Luwin thing is confirmed author error I believe, but if I had to make a rational explantion it would be that Luwin was brought to Riverrun to oversee the birth and accompany Cat to Winterfell post war, while Kym remained the Maester of Riverrun as he had already been doin that role for sometime

Also grats on 1k

Thank you! Hope you enjoyed the video, didnt know if it was hitting different in a bad way 0_0

@@randominternetguyoffical no definitely in the best way 🫡❤️

As always I love the name Sir Goose!

Thank you! I think you're one of the few who got it 😂 I thought it was a fun little reference

Very happy that you're enjoying the series I'm hoping to get part 5 out there soon I've just been really behind on working on it but I'll be making some predictions of some sort I don't know how new it'll be but there will be some talk of what I kind of think is gonna happen with sansa and little finger and Jayne poole and maybe even arya and Stoneheart 😳

I'm going to explore Harrenall and the Vale connection in video 4 (or 5?) because I think Preston is onto something there and I think his LF debt scheme reading is spot on. LF has plans to ride out winter in the Vale but Winter ends and he must emerge eventually to confront the chessboard again and secure his victory imo. I want to talk more about Sansa and Jayne Poole too. because those girls will be his end most likely

Thanks for watching in any case, hope you found it to be a fun romp so far! Obviously the Preston rule of only being right about 1/2 holds true lol I think most theory is over speculation. However I also think that GRRM intentionally leaves some things open so that they can be had fun with, a TV writers trick of the book in some sense. Who knows maybe GRRM will even see this theory and write it into Winds lmao

Or Luwin was stopping by Riverrun in his way to be the new maester of Winterfell (since its lady is nearing term). If you wanted to go north form Old town to Winterfell, going around Dorn, and to White harbor is not possible in the rebellion, Multiple fleets (Redwine, royal) are in the way. So you have to go to Seaguard which is the north most port in the west side of the continent, and the rest by land.

Maybe Luwin was sent from the Citadel to over see the birth and accompany the new lady Stark to Winterfell post war? Maester Kym would still have been over seeing the abortion as he was the Riverrun Maester. Obviously the Luwin conundrum is author error in universe but still I wonder if there is a sensible solution to him being present for all Cat's births?

Kym, or old Maester Kym. if I had to make a rational explantion it would be that Luwin was brought to Riverrun to oversee the birth and accompany Cat to Winterfell post war, while Kym remained the Maester of Riverrun as he had already been doin that role for sometime, before being killed and replaced with Vyman

Hopefully it was worth the wait, it was certainly an adventure to make lol. Looking forward to any thoughts you have.

@@randominternetguyoffical and Danny Devito as "Jon Arryn" has me laughing in tears. He was my pick for Mushroom

@@derekhammond6975 I would be so thrilled with Danny as Mushroom!

I address the prophecy thing in part 1, I dont dive as deep as I could but I think theres not really much to debunk there so no deep dive is needed. Harrenhall and Sansa are topics that I am going to have to dive into in part 4 and maybe a part 5... Harrenhall is something that I think get blown way outta proportion

@@randominternetguyoffical I always thought there was sometging special about Harrenhall. The ghost of HH calls it "the hall of kings" and yet only one king had his seat there. Unless there was something there before the castle was built.

@@vpapako I think its special in the world lore sense but I think its like the Nights King in that way. GRRM has said the Nights King was basically a myth that had no real world parallel like in the show. I believe the full "magic" of Harrenhall is much of that nature. tho i do believe that the weiwood beams contain trapped souls of children and maybe first men so I buy into it being "haunted" in that sense. It would for sure drive any telepath living there mad with the sorrow. Hence Mad Danel... So it is like "magic" in a way, just no tin one that's gonna have an impact on the current story imo.

@@randominternetguyoffical I don't know if it is going to affect the plot in a supernatural way but I believe that both Harrenhall and the isle of faces are going to be plot relevant in some way.

@@vpapako I have mixed feelings on both... isle of faces i think has a better chance than Harrenhal this late in the story, but like I there's a lot going on so who knows

Thank you! Very glad you like the videos =)

Thank you =) It was really cool to do a video with him, his videos are quite excellent. Im glad you were able to find the channel from the collab and I hope you enjoy the videos. Ive been on a bit of a hiatus recently so ill have to work on getting some new videos out soon!

@randominternetguyoffical can't wait! Lol "you can't rush art"

I imagine it as slightly more legitimate than the current stoneheart trials, We're like evidence will be presented but I don't think he'll get a real chance to counter argue it'll be kind of like the show where they dump all the evidence on him and then kill him but there may be a confession because of the presence of weirwoods which is something the show leaves out 🤔

Glad you liked it, I thought it was too good not to expand on once the idea got stuck in my brain!

Probably at least as sunny as Philadelphia though right?? XD

Its an interesting question, It seems at bare minimum hes being reckless 🤔

@randominternetguyoffical In feast Sansa says : "if Robin dies".LF corrects her :"WHEN Robert dies". Yes, Robert is a sickly boy, but LF sounds certain that his death will come soon, which.. I'm sure Petyr knows how dangerous SweetSleep is. And slow poisoning, disguised as healing& done by an unsuspecting maester fits Petyr's subtle style perfectly. (remember Sansa's hair net). Although I don't know what his motive could be, as his power in the Vale comes through SR. The idea that LF poisoned Hoster is brilliant , btw! At first I was doubtful,bcs Petyr wasn't around when Hoster died, but then I remembered that he didn't personally poison Joff and Jon A. either. You're probs my favourite ASOIAF theorist. I find your theories most logical and likely. Can't wait to see the conclusion of your Varys vids. ❤❤❤

@@notdeadjustyet8136 I'm really glad you've enjoyed the videos so much! Hearing that makes creating them very worth it. Like I'd still probably make them if no one cared but knowing that someone likes them is always wonderful. I am very very curious to see if we ever get a Petyr POV or a Bran vision of him back in the day at Riverrun. I'm also eager to see if there is a trial of Littlefnger!

They're basically the two best factions to pick from if you want war in the riverlands and if you hate the starks.

its a cover of the Temptation Sensation, thanks for asking I completely forgot to link it! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Uf_AkVstvjI.html

Thx m8

Wish I'd watched these before your Q&A came out, whoops.

I dont believe him for a second when he says that. Even trusting ol' Tyrion doesn't, so id say its highly unconfirmed if not out right disprovable that he really thinks that. Which brings up.. how could he not have know, Lysa woulda talked to him about it during the 11-12 years or so they were in contact after he was at Gul Town. They were deep in the plotting, him as the plotter and her as a piece and hidden dagger but still.

Ahh lol my poor pronunciation strikes again 😭

Personally I think that type of misdirection is how he's dupped folks like Vary', remember according to LF himself, knowing what someone is after is how you move them. ergo imo he wants others and us the reader to not know what's actually moving him, he wants everyone to think its about the power, chaos, the starks or whatever cuz then he cant be moved but in reality its about revenge for the time in his life he was wronged. an the man who wronged him most is Hoster Tully.. (and then once he sees Sansa she get wrapped up in his improvising to be sure) Don't get me wrong Ned was cue'd up for a good fuckin with by having the dump luck of being betrothed to Cat but it was neither starts nor ends with the Starks...

Eh I’d argue that this theory and the internet mans theory are not mutually exclusive. Little finger can want and plan revenge on a specific house while also taking advantage of improvisation and also hating all nobles for their (in his mind) hypocrisy, stupidity, etc.

@@iainhansen1047 agreed I just think LF poisoning Hoster is super convoluted and the textual evidence is barely evidence. Nothing in those lines suggests he had anything to do with Hosters death, especially since Lysa specifically mentions Jon Arryn being murdered so why wouldn’t she also mention her father and the Maester explicitly being murdered by her or by LF as well ? It’s also answering a question that no one is asking and needlessly complicates the story. Littlefinger doesn’t have to be behind everything

My question would then be why does he never do anything to advance this supposed goal of leveling the westerossi playing field? Like can you point to an action that implies this? Secondly, if his story is about large scale political transformation of a system, why all the personal focus? why the abortion? why the mystery? why is he often killing lowborn folks rather than elevating their social status or offering them greater upward social mobility? Systemic destruction is a big objective so were gonna need some big proof pointing that way, also some outcomes that show progress on those counts... i can't see any. Where as I can construct a good case that other wars were eaier to stat but he chose to start one in the Riverlands... The system isnt in his crosshairs, the Riverlands, the Tully's and Riverrun itself are.

@@randominternetguyoffical Because he’s a sociopath not a revolutionary, he only wants to level the playing field for himself. Tbh it’s my bad I didn’t phrase it very well. I didn’t mean that LF wants to change westerosi society, what I mean is that LF wants to get revenge on not just Hoster Tully but EVERY westerosi high lord, and he doesn’t care about actual large scale reform. He just wants to gain power and influence for himself while also destroying and causing conflict between the other westerosi nobles as to get them to destroy each other. He doesn’t give a flying fuck about the lowborn in fact he doesn’t give a fuck about anyone besides himself and Sansa but even with Sansa it’s in a creepy possessive sexual/romantic way and isn’t genuine. And I don’t think he chose the riverlands specifically or engineered the war so that it ravaged the Riverlands. The Riverlands is just in an unfortunate geographic location for war. Throughout westerosi history the Riverlands has always had it worst during any war because it borders 4 of the seven kingdoms as well as the iron islands and the crown lands. So unfortunately a lot of the fighting goes on in the Riverlands. I will give you this that I’m sure its very likely that Petyr took great pleasure in the Riverlands and Hosters lands being destroyed and ravaged and it may have been ‘a’ factor, or a pleasant outcome but by no means was it the catalyst or causing factor for him to pit the Lannisters VS the Starks. And while I don’t think he murdered Hoster the idea that the WOT5K would have been a petty revenge against him in LF’s mind is a really interesting idea that I’ve never heard and deffo builds on his character and is a great interpretation and perspective into how Littlefinger thinks and what his desires are ! While I’m not convinced, still a great video ! and I hope you keep making them I’ve been enjoying your channel:)

@@buckfastbjork6968 Really glad you've enjoyed the content in any case and I have greatly enjoyed our discourse on the topic. Lemme know your thoughts on future topics too, if theres anything you want to see me hit up. Having convos with people about the videos is really rewarding for me

I still feel like a different conflict would have been easier and more expedient. I didn't bring it up in the video but why not simply get Robert to get hip to the incest and make war on the Lannisters himself? I mean that sorta was the Renly Tyrell plan initially it seems, but if LF really needed a war and any war would do, why not just cut out the middle men of Renly and the Tyrells and just trade Robert a nice new lordship or whatever for proof of the incest? Just knowing about the incest means you can start a war between the crown and the Lannisters at anytime, LF however plans out a long complex war between the Lannisters and Starks. Which forces the majority of the battles and fighting into the Riverlands.

@@randominternetguyoffical I feel like it's important to emphasize how much he also hates the Starks and wants to bring suffering to that family as well. I know you sort of discounted that idea in this video, but it is actually present in his character. It's in how he talks to Ned throughout the first book and the glee he takes in betraying him. It's in the possibility that he manipulated Joffrey into demanding Ned's execution when literally everyone else was expecting him to be allowed to take the black. It's in how he tries to diminish Sansa's Stark identity the second she's in his clutches. Hell, he straight up talks about his made up fantasies about Catelyn being miserable in Winterfell and it being a cold and barren place, something Sansa immediately claps back at him on by talking about how happy her mother was in the North and how Winterfell itself is warm and cozy. As much as Littlefinger is a schemer, he's also a massive tool and he definitely let's himself get lost in his desire to hurt those he feels wronged him. Part of the reason I like your main points in this video is because it aligns with my view of Littlefinger as an angry incel prick As for your Robert idea, I have my doubts that would actually cause the war you're stating it would. Robert was actually the king and was able to operate as such undisputedly. If Robert found out about the incest and had confirmation, Cersei and Jaime have committed treason and their lives are forefeit, as are the lives of children. This doesn't necessarily lead to war. It leads to executions. Even if Tywin then rebels because of that, he's functionally alone cause he has no other alliances outside of the Westerlands, apart from his sister's marriage into House Frey, and they sure as hell wouldn't support him. So there's no actual conflict in that scenario.

@@SupposeIRose I do agree he hates the starks, I probably presented it a bit light because the starks are often presented as the focus of most of his hate. I dont mean to totally discount the hatred of house stark but rather to show it takes a back seat to hatred of house tully. I do intend to flush out someone on house stark and baelishs desire to fuck with ned and get him to die honorless next video as well. On the topic of Starks and the potential of war tho, Ned thinks that a war with the West would result from Robert uncovering the incest, granted he thinks the West would be crushed like the Grey Joys but I think the fat that he thinks it would be a war is good proof that Robert could have been lead toward by Littlefinger.

@@randominternetguyoffical Yeah but that's not the sort of war that works most to Littlefinger's advantage. It's hard to discuss this without getting stuck in presentism because the war that ends up happening was so significantly to Littlefinger's exact advantage, but I have a hard time believing any lesser conflict like one where Tywin alone is rebelling against the crown would be one he could use towards his advancement.