What if Edmure Tully followed Robb Stark and did NOT attack the Stone Mill? What would happen in Game of Thrones? ENTER MY 10,000 SUBSCRIBER CONTEST HERE: gleam.io/FYAH6/thebattproduct... FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @TheSAPeacock
Yeah but his troops wouldn't know who she is when killing their way through the red keep or Cersi would follow through with having all the women killed, Sansa included.
Robb told Edmure to not do anything till he got to Riverrun dude. He specifically told him that he would have informed Edmure of his plans when he arrived. sending a Raven with a more specific message than that is risky, as it is said many times in the show, the message could be intercepted by the Lannisters.
edmure position is pretty bad, he saw his people butchered and his land pillaged by a lannister's dog and wanted to do something to protect them robb in the other hand doesnt care about riverland, he even agreed to give harrenhall to walder frey , i mean wtf harrenhall is edmure's property and still robb agreed to walder's proposition smh
@@Vebian Robb wouldn't have had to do that if Edmure had been less of a dumbfuck he should have listened to Robb maybe they would have won and it would have been worth it.
@El Padrino the point was to let tywin pass through the riverlands AND INTO THE WESTERLANDS (his domain) in order to keep him away fron King's landing at a pivotal moment. As for the riverlands they were under attack before robb became king and had he not arrived when he did edmure would have been killed and riverrun lost ( yes i know this all still happened all the same but with Robb there they had a decent chance of winning the war)
The Lannisters won TWO5K by pure sheer lucky when you look back what happened. 1 Ned acepting the marriage Joffrey/Sansa while refusing the Robb/Myrcella took a potential hostage for the North. 2 Ned bringing Arya to KL even though he thinked that the Lannisters had Killed Jon Arryn, pushed his son out of the windom and that KL was a dirty and dangerous place. Well done Ned. 3 Ned sending Beric Dandelion instead of Loras Tyrell to the Mummy Ford (if Loras dies like Beric this destroys the chance of Lannister/Tyrell Alliance later on) 4 Tyrion arms the Vale Montains Clans to atack the Vale and the Vale still remain neutral during the war. 5 Behading Ned, even a stupid move like this proved to be good for them later on (if Ned lives Robb would not be KITN, and would be allied with Stannis or Renly) 6 Doran Martell acepting the alliance with the Lannisters even though he hated them, the Lannisters were in a weak spot surrounded by enemies and Doran still refused to take the chance for revenge... he even got a hostage later on and didn't do shit. 7 Even a major win for Robb proved to be a problem later on, the capture of Jaime didn't do shit for him in a negotiation, and made his camp a bloody mess, Catelyn to make shit even worse frees him based on the LF and Jaime words...the 2 man know for having no honor, jaime broked all of his vows that he made and LF that betrayed Ned... still she trusted them. Just Great Catelyn. 8 Balon raiding the North is the stupid choice of target you could ever hope for, the north is the largest region of the kingdom, they neutralize completely the naval forces of the ironborns, the Greyjoys ain't good fighter outside of the sea, the north is not know for good wealth, and Robb only taked 18k out of 45k that the north could gather... is a really big risk for really low gain, and he still did it, and he didn't even ask Tywin any prize for this... 9 Tywin somehow managed to lose a battler for Edmure Tully when Tywin has 25k and Edmure 11k, and even this proved to be good for them. 10 Stannis killing Renly with magic, just when Catelyn is at his tend... 11 Even Joffrey leaving the battlefiel like coward, lack of food in the city, riots, and soo on, KL still maneged to remain united and opose Stannis long enough.
he didn't tell Edmure because if I remember correctly he had no direct contact with Edmure, their information was passed via raven more than likely. That said Robb wouldnt risk detailing his entire plan in a message that may be intercepted. Also, I thought Robb told Edmure to hold RR not the riverlands. Attacking the mill isnt a bad move if you're tasked with defending the entire Riverlands but not if you're instructed to hold RR at all costs.
The realm's finances are even worse since Baelish was very good at his job, and Cersei still murders Robert at some point and starts a war between Stannis and Tywin.
That's very possible. I mean he found his way out of King's Landing when Tywin died. I just assumed if he was going to leave during Blackwater, he would've. Who knows! :)
Edmure was actually a good man at heart and will be a great lord of the Riverlands. It was bad for Blackfish to mock Edmure and should've encouraged and advised Edmure to do better.
I really believe if Stannis would've offered his daughter to Rickon it would've formed a nice alliance. If Robb declined offer her to Arobin of the Vale. The Vale is more of a stretch but if Stannis offered sherin in marriage and Sansa's safety during the sack of kings landing then we could have seen Robb and Stannis unite.
@@aaronalston565 Rob and stannis were already allied when he sent cat away and talked to the real king stannis when she went to renly. It's just tywin got lucky in running back to kings landing when Rob's uncle kept them away. Book stannis and Jon got along well enough as Jon told stannis how to make allies in the north
It's both Rob's and Edmure's fault. Edmure didn't follow orders and Rob didn't fully explain the situation. Whether it's technically Edmure's lands or not he is still a subordinate to Rob (as well as the Blackfish possibly) in the Army.
Lord Edmure Tully of course u would say that. how did it feel getting your uncle killed and yielding the castle for a son u have no evidence ever existed? family, duty, fuck up.
I agree it was both their faults, but I think it really falls on Robb. There's really no reason why he didn't tell Edmure what he was trying to do. If you trust your generals, you should probably tell them what's up. Edmure tried to get a W for the army (which he did), but messed up the long-term strategy. Of course Edmure should've listened, but Robb made it harder than it had to be. It was a deliberate decision not to tell Edmure and that is on him unfortunately.
They didn't say when that plan was going to be enacted, weather it was going to be the next day or in a few days. We see in the show that Rob was planning on telling Lord Edmure. Rob probably couldn't tell him with the impending possibility Tywin/The Mountain attacking and capturing Edmure then learning of the plan and endangering everyone. And then Rob would have been at his own version the Battle of (which ever he destroyed Jamie's force) Then there's also the possibility that the plan wasn't fully laid out yet. Adding to what I said before.
i think that would have made the relationship between their fathers a loot better considering when Arys declined the offer Tywin got kinda pissed and he is not one for forgetting. That´s a significant reason to why their relationship went sour. Arys insulted his family and continued to do so and we aall know how he feels about those kinda people
when I played Crusader King 2 mod Cersei ended marrying Stannis during the Roberts Rebellion, never laugh so hard before... could you imagine a worse match than this?
For some reason, I found this to be particularly intriguing when I really thought about it. Initially, I didn't think it would be very interesting but NOPE. Edmure is not the idiot he seems to be. They really made him a buffoon.
Great video, except Robb explains that he was about to tell Tully his entire plan that very day. But instead of informing and acting on a plan that could have crippled the Lannister forces, he had to scold his uncle for incompetence.
I would actually advise you to study Auftragstaktik or mission based tactic. It was defined by a prussian general of staff Moltke. You basically tell your generals what they should do during the campaign but you also tell them what is the actuall goal of said campaign and by this you put trust into their ability to fullfil your desire by seizing an opportunity when youre not around to give orders. Robb failed to tell Edmure what the ultimate outcome of this campaign should be. Edmure was just told to hold the line and he did exactly that. Furthemore he used the opportunity when Lannisters were crossing the river to attack them when they were weakest. Edmure proved to be a good defensive general.
If you’re planning an elaborate trap and strategy you should probably let your largest and most powerful vassal in on it. Edmure is a just and extremely competent lord, who indeed ruined the strategy but not to any fault of his own IMO. I really always thought that GRRM based him on Prince Rupert from the English Civil War. IIRC, King Charles ordered Prince Rupert (his like great nephew or something) to March north with an army to assure that the City of York does not fall to parliamentary forces. Charles gave him extremely ambiguous orders, he basically said “if York is not yet sieged you need to stay in the north and consolidate power, if York is lost you need to march back south and support my army.” However, Charles never told him what to do in the most likely scenario: what if York is in the middle of a siege? Rupert understood the orders to mean that he must try to relieve the siege, resulting in the disastrous battle of the Marston Moors and assuring the defeat of Charles in the English Civil War. wouldn’t you say it’s more the fault of Charles for not delivering clear and concise directions than it is Rupert’s fault for not knowing what Charles wanted him to do? Alternatively, is it really the Fault of Edmure for not realizing there’s a greater strategy at play and deciding to defend his lands and people against an enemy army?
Myrcella was already in Dorne by the time of Stannis' attack on King's Landing, and the Dornish would balk at Stannis' demand they execute her or send her to him for execution. In the books, I firmly believe Tywin had no intention of pushing further into the Riverlands and inviting Robb's plan to work. I think they would have withdrawn eventually to be positioned to reinforce King's Landing; he knows it's too crucial. I think the only real key difference is The Mountain gets promptly executed by Robb after he and his retinue of riders is captured, which might not change MUCH.... Until Tyrion's trial by combat, where suddenly Cersei has a much worse selection of champions to choose from. The only person who would undoubtedly side with her is Meryn Trant, who, while being a fine swordsman, no doubt, would get absolutely DUMMIED by Bronn. I suppose it's possible that Tywin offers to break the marriage pact with Cersei if the Tyrells have Loras represent the Crown, but I doubt Tywin would risk Loras dying and pissing off the Tyrells. In the end, Tyrion is either exonerated or wins the Trial by Combat, but still has to flee King's Landing/Westeros because Cersei spares no expense in hiring assassins to send after him. Varys still smuggles him to Essos and urges him to go seek out Daenerys, but Varys' cover is not blown, so he remains in KL and resumes his post as Master of Whispers, acting as a sleeper agent for Dany's benefit. Tyrion has a harder time wrangling Meereen without Varys, but the end result is much the same; Dany returns with her dragons and Dothraki and lays waste to the armies of the rest of Slaver's Bay. In his position as MoW, Varys continues to quietly serve Daenerys by trying to keep the realm somewhat unstable and find allies for her; the Faith Militant never happens, with Tywin still alive and Hand of the King, so Margaery happily manipulates Tommen and becomes pregnant not too long after the wedding. Unfortunately, with no Sept of Baelor explosion and without Oberyn dying in the Trial by Combat, The Reach and Dorne don't align with Dany. She'd have half the Iron Fleet, her Dothraki and her Unsullied, and that's probably it for armies. Dorne's outrage with the Lannisters was reignited by Oberyn's death; without that inciting incident, they're far less likely to outright betray Prince Doran. The only plausible way I could see Dorne supporting Dany is if the show went the route of Dorne quietly working towards Targaryen Restoration, and Doran has been working with Varys all along; obviously this was not the case in the show, so Dorne, at best, stays neutral after recalling Oberyn from the Small Council(I think part of the reason Tywin invited Oberyn to the Small Council is because it would make him an easy hostage to take in the event of Dornish revolt). The Tyrells, however, are all-in on Queen Margaery; they'd be on the Lannister's side til the bitter end in this situation... at least until Tywin tries to make a play to seize the Tyrell treasury. One possible, but admittedly unlikely, situation to consider is if Robb(Or Catelyn?) is politically canny enough after capturing The Mountain, and writes to Dorne and offers to send him to them to stand trial. This could open the door to giving Robb an alliance with Dorne, which would eliminate his need for House Frey; he'd suddenly be able to play for time to outlast the Lannisters, as Dorne is primely positioned to threaten The Reach. No House Frey, no Red Wedding. Dorne would be FURIOUS with Doran if he did anything but accept Robb's gift of Gregor Clegane captive. He either accepts, or risks revolt. Shortly after, Gregor would confess to the murder... and Tywin's role in ordering it, giving Dorne a clear pretext for war. Hell, if Robb's clever enough, he could even take this alliance and throw Stannis into the mix, with his only demand being Northern independence, with Stannis promising to send Tywin to Dorne to stand trial once he takes the throne. Stormlands, Dorne, the Riverlands and the North? Unless Petyr promptly convinces Lysa to send the Knights of the Vale against Robb Stark, Tywin will probably start looking to sue for peace. No idea what the peace offer even looks like. Ceding the throne to Stannis, sending Jaime to the Wall, Cersei and her kids to Essos, and.... surrendering himself to Dorne? Leaving Kevan in charge of House Lannister, and eventually Lancel fkn Lannister becomes Lord of Casterly Rock, probably going full Sparrow on the Westerlands.
Oh please remind him of this. Robb not telling Edmure the plan was his blunder. Edmure only did what was natural and try to protect his lands (and seize was looked to be a juicy opportunity).
I never understood why Cat never fully explained why she freed Jaime. She really did not have a choice considering that there was really only two outcomes, either Robb's men would have killed Jaime, or she would set him free, in which case there would be a chance that her daughters could be returned to her.
@@MegaxError there wasn't a good reason though Jaime had been locked up in the Riverrun Dungeons, so no Northmen could have gotten to him if they'd tried. Catlyn just releases him anyway. On the show they make it seem like a desperate decision in order to save his life but it isn't like that in the books
Edmure disobeyed orders. He was most likely left out of the plan because he's kind of dumb. Tywin was not "ravaging" the riverlands at this point, he was trying to cross so he could stop Robs invasion of the westerlands. Edmure, not even lord at the time, left what he was supposed to be protecting to meet Tywin in the field. Not only did this lead directly to the red wedding and the failed siege of King's Landing, but it also contributed greatly to Rob losing half his forces via Rickard Carstarks revenge. Also a most of the people that you mentioned would die during a successful siege of King's Landing wouldn't. Tommen wasn't there. Mercela wasn't there. Jaime wasn't there. Tyrion and Cersei are too important politically to kill. And nobody in their right mind, (aside from maybe Joffrey), would kill Sansa , also too important politically. In the end though, it's also Cat and Robs fault too, but fuck Edmure.
I have to disagree with you about it being rob's fault, We learnt from Jamie Lannister that rob didn't fully trust his own men when Jamie asked why rob dragged him from camp to camp instead of putting him in a dungeon of one of his bannermen, also it's a completely legit military tactic to not give all the information to everyone, nobody can spill all the secrets if nobody knows them all
Well Robb said that about not trusting his men with Jaime's life (as in they'd all want to kill Jaime). Not trusting one of your main generals with your battle strategy is just silly. Your main Generals are supposed to be people you entrust major secrets to right?
TheBattProductions yeh you're right, Robb probably should have told him, I just thought it was a possible explanation as to why he didn't, it seems weird that he would just forget to tell him so you have to think he had some reason, as for the Jamie thing I could swear there was a line in the show to the effect of "if I left you with one of my men they'd receive a letter from your father telling them to return you or die" (not the exact words obviously)
Stannis, called the king who cared.Let the wolves and lions tear one another apart, but if they make the kingdom bleed, if they slaughter the Innocent, the justice and fury of the black stag will consume them with fire. The Others, what of them? The demons of ice will melt before the flames, let them come, let them come and see humanity's strength. They will see our spear points gleaming and our armour shinning as the sun rises and the dawn comes to put the long night to flight. And as we charge against the blue eyed demons and the undead, belched forth from hell, we shall cry "STANNIS!LIGHTBRINGER!STANNIS!
I don't think Stannis would have killed Sansa since she was held captive there and the long historical connection between there families. Also Stannis wanted to be a good and just kind, making enemy of the Starks who still held Winterfel at the time would have been poor judgement in my opinion
Miguel Lopes it was simple, he'd been ordered to hold riverrun and not attack, he should have followed that order. Anything else is insubordination. Keep orders simple, bullshit baffles brains.
Miguel Lopes oh we're getting personal now. Look at stannis in Roberts rebellion, he was ordered to hold storms end and that's exactly what he did. If you are ordered to hold a castle by your king you hold that castle. You do not sally forth and attack without an order to do so.
Miguel Lopes giving up a position of strategic advantage against the orders of your king is always fucking stupid. Look at Ramsay in the battle of the bastards. He had the superior numbers but sallied out to meet Jon and got destroyed, that is why you obey orders and don't abandon positions of strength. Robb was under no obligation to explain his full plan to Edmure, edmure should have just done as he was fucking told.
well, I haven't seen that full episode, but I've seen clips. from what was said, I think they had a meeting discussing the plans, but edmure walked out before they got to the "don't attack" part. idk, that's what I took the "you would've known if you were patient" thing to mean.
Well, don't bother uploading it, because I'll be dead already, JK! Take all the time you need mate, but hurry the fuck up, because I am dying. I know you've been sick, but it's your health vs my life, what do you value more?
Let's not forget that Robb's other generals kept Edmure in the dark as well. It's kind of like when the Pentagon and the CIA backed different factions in Syria that ended up killing each other. Communicate, people!
What If Ned Stark sent Ser Loras Tyrell to arrest The Mountain not Beric Dondarian? this would actually change quite a bit in the long run because if The Mountain kills Ser Loras like he did Beric (and let’s face it he will) then that completely ruins any and all chances of a future Lannister/Tyrell Alliance since the entirety of Westeros knows that The Mountain is Tywin Lannister’s pet so he would be held responsible for the death of the heir to Highgarden (maybe the Tyrells would side with the Starks after Renly’s death and try to marry Margaery Tyrell to Robb Stark, they wouldn’t side with the Lannisters in this scenario and they can’t side with Stannis since he is already married so Margaery may just have to settle with being Queen of the Largest of the Seven Kingdoms)
If Edmure hadn't attacked and Robb had succeeded in killing or capturing the mountain it would have changed the war Dramatically just because of Dorne, now if you are wishing for the best maybe Dorne decides to fight with Robb for their own Independence, but more likely they just more openly start to move against the lannisters and this alone helps Robb in 2 ways, it means the Lannisters have less men to spare against Robb because they need to guard against any actions towards Myrcella who is in Dorne, and even more important, the Tyrells send far less men to help the Lannisters, even against Stannis, the Tyrells and Dorne not only hate each other but Dorne has a history of successful wars and raids into the Reach, which means Mace would have to keep the larger part of his forces in the south regardless of his ambitions or his bannermen would revolt and besides the lannisters the Tyrells were perhaps the least loved of the Lord Paramounts by their own Bannermen and people
Poor Edmure. If people found out he let Lannisters raid the Riverlands even though he could stop them just to set a trap, he would have looked weak. As leader of the Riverlands it was only natural to beat the enemy out of your lands.
Wait I am confused, didn't the battle of Stone mill happen after the siege of kings landing? Or was there a big time gap between when it happened and when it was talked about in the show. Because in the show Rob confronted Edmure about it in season 3 well after the siege of Kings landing. What am I missing?
Edmures mistake is even more epic in the books. Edmure is told to contain Tywin, not the Mountain, he attacks him instead. Robb's plan was to block Tywin's retreat, not kill him. Keep him separated from Kings Landing so Stannis can take the city. Edmure runs him off instead, Tywin retreats, regroups, then goes to Kings Landing to aid the Seige. Had Edmure done his job, Stannis takes the city and essentially ends the war. Running him off allowed him to save the entire war.
A couple more what if's, (you've heard these before) Sansa leave's with the Hound at the battle of black water, Arya gets to her family before the red wedding when they are still at riverrun most likely, and Arya gets to the Vale before Lysa fly's.
Haha. I'm sorry but I've been sick. I'm better now but may have to wait until Sunday for my new one since so many days have passed :( I'll do another GOT video instead!
I meant a GOT WI video, so yes, do it please I'm hoping for WHAT IF Jon accepts Stannis's offer In which case: Jon Stark would've quickly rallied many, if not every northern house against the Boltons. Yes, with Stannis backing him, every house would probably join him. Plus, Jon would probably have the wildlings fighting for him aswell. The Boltons would maybe even stand down without a proper fight. Now, marching south, Stannis with 10 000 men, Jon Stark with over 10 000 men. Stannis as the last true battle commander in Westeros, this would be pretty exciting
Ximen I know what you mean my friend. I've been sick and just couldn't get one done unfortunately :( That's a good one Ximen! I have it down :) Thanks for the help as well writing that out. Hah.
You have been sick, so I figured you needed help. Also remember that the Lannister army is divided all over Westeros, King's Landing is down on it's knees because of the High Sparrow. And the Tyrell army.. led by Mace Tyrell???
Excellent video man! Bravo! What if the Lannisters had been killed in the sacking of the city by stannis' forces thus depleting the Baratheon bannerman allowing the Tyrells to sweep in and destroy stannis Baratheon and his forces. That would have been my choice, for sure lol. Thanks for that video
The context in books and the show are completely different. The impact and the overall result wouldn't even be close to the same. Here's the common context between the books and show: Robb has just lifted the siege at Riverrun, put Edmure in charge and captured Jamie. Tywin is sitting pretty at Harrenhal. The Mountain is ravaging the Riverlands. There is a new army being raised at Oxcross. And Robb has just been crowned King. At this point, he only knows the goals he was to achieve - but he doesn't know how he'll achieve them. He knows that a) As long as the battle stays in Riverlands, his country would suffer the brunt of it. People from Riverlands would keep dying and its resources would keep being pillaged. So, ultimately, he has to move the battle to a more favorable locale. b) He can't take too long in doing this - if the army at Oxcross gets ready, he'd be trapped by Tywin to the East and Stafford to the West. c) There is symbolic significance to holding your own fort. At this point, all options are open to him: a) He could stay at Riverrun and play the wait and see game - inadvisable because of the growing Army. b) He could ride East and face Tywin - inadvisable because that keeps hurting the Riverlands. c) He could ride West and attack Westerands - inadvisable because Golden Tooth is a formidable defense. d) He could ride back North or South - inadvisable, because it leaves Riverlords to their own devices. At this point, he doesn't have a concrete plan - so he tells Edmure to hold Riverrun and rides out West, hoping to figure something out along the way. Luckily, he finds a way around Golden Tooth, smashes the army at Oxcross, forces Crag to surrender and now he has a foothold in the Westerlands. Ofcourse, he didn't know he'd succeed in all this, so he couldn't have told Edmure about his future plans. The only thing he could've said was "hold the fort and guard my rear". But having gained a foothold in Westerlands, the situation is changed. Robb has the opportunity to accomplish his goals - get the battle out of Riverlands and humiliate Tywin by capturing his forts. He hopes that Edmure is smart enough to see that the situation is changed - Edmure isn't. Impact in the Books: Tywin was more concerned with losing Westerlands in the books than he was in the show. He was trying to get back there and evict Robb from the Westerlands - but Edmure kept getting in the way. The result was that when the news of Stannis' impending attack got to him, there was nothing stopping him from turning around and going to KL. Edmures actions kept the war in Riverlands - thus prolonging the suffering of his own people - and laid the groundwork for their ultimate defeat. Edmure thought he was guarding Robb's rear by fighting Tywin. He couldn't figure out that the situation had changed and Robb had no opportunity to tell him. Everything about Stannis winning KL, Lannisters being killed etc would've happened in the books. Impact in the Show: Tywin showed no signs of taking Robb's bait here. He was okay with Robb winning victories in Westerlands as long as his men kept raiding Riverlands. With the news of Stannis' attack, he split his forces - leaving some with Gregor to keep attacking the Riverlands and others with him to KL. Edmure's decision to fight at Stony Mill had no impact on the overall outcome of the war. Tywin still would've won Blackwater, Robb still would've married Talisa, Freys and Boltons still would've betrayed him. The only difference would be the damage to Riverlands would've been much lesser. Gregor just had one agenda - keep attacking the Riverlands. Being the dumb beast, he'd have crossed the Stony Sept and found himself between Edmure's army to the East/North and Robb to the West. With Gregor down, the Lannister presence in Riverlands would've been significant;y weaker and the overall damage done would've been lesser. But they still would've lost the war.
Edmure Tully's brash action at the stone mill is directly responsible for the downfall and eventual death of Robb Stark. If he had done as ordered and waited, the mountain would have died, there wouldn't have been hostages for the Karstarks to unjustly kill, which means their army wouldn't have left, which means Robb would have had enough men to take Casterly Rock, where in which Robb would have found out that the Lannister mines have been dry for 3 years and were broke, the lannisters would have lost all their power and allies and Robb would have won the war. Edmure is a fool! HOW HARD IS IT TO DO AS YOU'RE TOLD!?
Robb didnt tell Edmure in the first place because Edmure wouldnt have agreed to just sit there and let his men and people die. Robb assumed (wrongly) that he had a better chance of the outcome he wanted if Edmure didn't know until the Lannisters were already upon them. That's not to say that Edmure is a bad guy. He just couldnt sit back and let his people die. Really what Robb needed was something that Edmure cared about more than his men so that he would be forced to follow the plan
Robb gave him an order. Edmere disobeyed. He doesn't have to explain the plan but, since Ed's a general, he was probably hoping Ed could figure it out like Blackfish.
Arguable blame on Rob: that's his uncle and probably didn't expect him to disobey orders; furthermore neither Rob nor Edmure won anything except, as Rob says, the mill
Would Robb really bend the knee to Stannis if he executes Stansa? Yeah, the killer of his father is dead and no longer on the throne, but now the killer of his sister is on the throne. In that situation, I'm pretty sure the North would keep rebelling.
Yeah you can't expect a good lord to see his people being slaughtered and just let it happen without knowing a good reason to let that go down epic fail on Robbs behalf
The Riverlords had all been sent home to defend their homes. Edmure with only Tully levies was told to hold Riverrun. He did not follow his king's orders and decided to take his own initiative. Robb's plan only materialized once he was in The Westerlands and he did not need to tell Edmure since Edmure's job was to hold Riverrun and no more.
We haven't done this one. That's a tough one to do. If the Freys went with the Starks, the Boltons likely would've as well and the North would've had a chance for sure.
well in the lore when they talk about it tywin is very keen on storming duskendale and someone says "they will surely kill the king" and tywin replies "and if so, we have a better king right here" and points to the prince rhaegar. so perhaps he intended for the king to die hoping his son would be better. however he could not refuse selmy point blank to try to do his duty since he admired him greatly..
If the Lannisters had been wiped out would the Dornish have been happy or would they still side with Dany when she arrived? Would the Tyrells's have sided with her for revenge? Would Stannis have made a marriage pact with Dorne between his daughter and Quentyn to secure peace? One battle leads to many questions. I do think the Starks would have made peace with Stannis to fight the Others, He is after all the King who cared. However, his pride would not allow him to surrender his crown to Dany and the north would not help militarily because the would be preparing to fight the Others. The end result would be his downfall at the hands of Dany with the Tyrell's.
Dornish would've been thrilled. Would they side with Dany? Probably. Would the Tyrells? Maybe. It's up in the air. Stannis and the marriage pact is possible, sure. I don't know if the Martells would've gone that way since they probably would want one with the Targaryens and Stannis would probably have to go first for that to happen. The King Who Cared indeed. Dany + Tyrells is a great thing indeed. That's why I'm very anxious for what goes down on the show soon! :)
Robb: I could have the mountain's head on spike right now. Instead i've got a Mill. What Values is the mill?? Edd: .... Edd: It's a good Mill. * Robb stares at Black fish * Robb & Blackfish: King in the North!!! King in the North!!!!! King in the North!!!!
Mace Tyrell would've backed down immediately upon hearing stannis took kings landing wiping out the lannister bloodline and that robb had decimated the lannister forces. Also considering Stannis was fighting up front and leading his men there is a good chance he would be able to secure Sansa during the final attack on the red keep. Ned Stark backed his claim after all so this would be important to him. Then If he saved Sansa then negotiations with Robb would probably go well.
In the books it’s very clear the Lord of Riverrun had to fight back. He saved a lot of people. Edmure is shown as an idiot in the show but I genuinely think he was in the right in the books. He couldn’t just wait to figure out *when* to fight back.
Sansa wouldn't have died if Stannis took the city. Remember, she fled Meagors(spelling?) Holdfast and the only person who knew where she was is the hound, who wouldn't hurt her.
Robb isn't to blame, he was hosting a war council meeting just before this scene and tells Edmure that he would of found out about his plan at that meeting if he just waited, he obviously didn't want to send a raven in case it got intercepted, so clearly Edmure is to blame.
Then why the fuck did he make an war meeting without making sure that his most powerful vassal attending in the first place. Or send booldy Blackfish to him
I always doubted that Robb would have been able to actually pull off this plan. Tywin isn't a great commander, but at this point he knows that Robb is a military genius, so he's not going to be incredibly aggresive. I doubt that Tywin would be particularly eager to put his army in between Robb and Edmure, especially when the latter is uncharacteristically not resisting as his lands are destroyed. This was never a great plan.
ThejollyFrenchman Yes, they would’ve won. Tywin was going to march into the westerlands and Edmure and his men were holding Rivverrun while King Robb surrounds Tywin and the mountain. Keep in mind that at that time Robb had more men than Tywin but when Edumre interfered, Tywin got the chance to retreat and meet with Mace Tyrell and the rest is history.
I’m new here so not sure if this has been covered but “what If Brandon Stark (Eddard’s older brother) had killed Petyr Baelish in the duel for Caitlyn Tully instead of sparing his life” Tin foil hat time but I think Petyr spread the rumor that Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark because he knew it would make Eddard Stark go to war over her since the mad king had just killed his dad and brother. Now Eddard had just married Caitlyn and Petyr figured if Edd died then he could swoop in and win her over. Just like when Eddard was suppose to be sentenced to the wall for plotting to overthrow Joffrey, had he not been beheaded then he would have been in the party of criminals leading up to the wall. The same party of criminals where Jaqen H’ghar was. It’s not a coincidence that he was there when Petyr had named drop the faceless men not two episodes before. So my theory is that had Petyr died then there wouldn’t have been the Game of Thrones we know and love (obviously) but it possibly could have been worse.
So the plan was to let the Lannister army do what they like to do trough Riverlands. And Edmure is a black sheep for thinking of his people as of his family - instead of prioritising every half-tully's interest. And there's a lot of half tullys out there who only use them but never help them. And that's what Sansa can't forgive to Edmure, and NOT surrendering Riverrun as many believe. I love Robb but he was asking for too much. Cat married a Stark, Sansa married a Baratheon / Lannister (self willingly) and now Edmure has to watch his people die AND marry a Frey to clean up their mess?
