Johnny vs. Sonic Forces 

"Get some fresh, young people for the Modern stuff" That's exactly what Nintendo did with Odyssey, and look at how amazing that turned out.

Fun fact: This game had less people working on it than previous boost style games. The director was Sonic Lost World's director (as well as Colors' director) and the people working on the level design were all rookies. The director for Sonic Generations is different from Colors and he had no part of this game as well as the level designers from Sonic Generations. I forgot to mention that the total number of level designers that worked this game were 3. I also forgot that the "rookies" actually never worked on a Sonic game before until this one. I also forgot that the producer of this game was the director of Sonic 06.

Christ, that ending was unscripted? Impressive shit, Johnny. This is how you can tell how much a franchise means to someone - when you can go off on a passionate tangent without a single mistake. Sonic Team better listen to this guy.

Sonic Team can "Live" with their mistakes, but can never "Learn" from them.

Ah yes, good old Edgy the Hedgy. Also, that unscripted part at the end definitely needs to happen. Fresh blood would be a blessing at this point.

Johnny being disappointed, sad, and begging Sonic Team to bring in new people instead of being as bitter as he was with 06 makes me unreasonably sad now.

Sega: we will not make an adventure style game because we want to look forward and leave the past behind (looks at classic sonic) Me: *HMMMMM!!!*

I was very disappointed to see Tails cowering in fear every time a casual enemy showed up. Like wtf, did Sonic Adventure not happen or something? He was such a bad ass in that game.

Sonic being tortured and having no scars, accusing of Zavok of not having fun? THEY WERE MAKING HIM PLAY BAD SONIC GAMES!

So when Johnny said "I wasn't just talking about the story," am I the only one who heard the raw disappointment in his voice?

"Welcome to Sonic Team we make games I think!"

“Sonic Forces doesn’t leave me wanting more, it leaves me asking ‘Where’s the rest of it?’” That has got to be one of my favorite lines in anything.

I'll just say this: If diehard Sonic fans can make a better Sonic game (Sonic Mania) than his actual creators (Sonic Forces), then you know something's wrong.

They tortured Sonic by forcing him to play Sonic Boom

The amount of times Jim Carrey pops up in this video is probably why he was cast as Eggman.

Sonic Forces...you to play Mania instead. Just because I like Forces doesn't mean I don't think it could be a ton better.

Blaze started as from another dimension, then from the future Classic Sonic started out from the past, then from another dimension. Is it Opposite Day?

I definitely agree that the Sonic Franchise needs some fresh blood. Get a new team together to work on Modern Sonic, let the Mania team continue working on Classic Sonic and let the current Sonic Team work on something else to give them a break from developing sonic games non stop. Maybe bring back some Neglected franchises to take Sonic's place for a while until Modern Sonic is ready to make a proper comeback.

I've always been a Mario fan but it's just so sad to see this. 20 years ago Sonic was on par with Mario. Now we have Mario Odyssey, a game with thousands of hours and so much care and love poured into it. A genuinely great experience all around. And then this? A budget title thats only 4 hours long? There's no contest. Mario is just in a completely different league now. Sonic deserves better.

Shockingly, the IDW series, taking place right after Forces, fixes a lot of plot stuff. Blaze is back and even goes Burning during an arc, the characters are much more like themselves as opposed to, "none of this is good, Vector. That's why it's called war," and there's even a bit of a meta reference having to do with Neo Metal Sonic, to the ending possibly being unfinished. Also, I don't know if it was intentional, but your use of Jim Carrey clips is super fitting.

13:08 Come on, Johnny. This Sonic game wasn't "Rush"ed. It was "Force"d.

The false advertising of fighting Shadow and Chaos is what pisses me off the most

Squidward: "I mean, who wants to play the same level over and over again?" Patrick: "Oh boy Green Hill zone!"

Seeing him rant at the end about what the next game will be like after everything we've seen with Frontiers is wild.

Shadow the Edgehog and knuckles.

Always a wonderful review as usual from you bro.

Hearing Knuckles' "war" line made me laugh so hard. I don't know if it's the delivery, just the fact it's Knuckles of all people saying it or both but it is hilarious. (To me at least.)

Looking at a couple playthroughs, it looks like the developers did a good chunk of work, but partway through, they just got tired and said, "whatever, this is good enough." It's seen in the cliched writing, the short stages, and the half-assed appearances of the wider Sonic cast. The game wasn't made out of passion like Sonic Mania, but instead looks like it was made out of obligation.

A little information that might be useful to some people: Sonic Team was actually split into two teams sometime near the release of the 360 and ps3; Team A and Team B. Team A has been credited for developing Sonic Unleashed(ps3/360), Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors. Team B was the team responsible for Sonic Lost World and now Sonic Forces but it's also speculated that The Secret Rings and The Black Knight were also developed by Team B. The trailers saying "by the team who brought you colors and generations" were definitely misleading as this was a different team from those games, and the people who did work on both forces and the other two aforementioned games were not in the same positions, and had less control over the final product. Wether Team A is working on the next big thing is unknown, but i certainly hope they bring back Team A.

Sonic Mania: half the price but two times better

Sonic Team: "Shit we made a bad game, quick make something good to fix it!!" *Good game happens* ST: "Ah yes good, now make something bad again so we can keep the balance!!"

I’m back here after sonic frontiers and it’s dlc. It’s crazy how far we came from the disappointing forces to the legitimately great frontiers

Comparatively, Sonic Adventure and SA2 had complaints of 'being on rails' or 'playing itself', but having played Forces, Sonic team actually created or had the best formula for a 3D Sonic game with the adventure titles. If they polished up the gameplay, added variety that fits the character and the gameplay styles we expect of Sonic, I agree, it's time to visit an adventure style game with the polish and ingenuity of a modern Mario title. Here's hoping!

"This game just... exists." Yep

Hate how the Sonic Twitter page hyped this game up so much and it's just average...

I love how you used the Jim Carrey cuts. It’s like silly foreshadowing for the upcoming 2019 sonic movie 😂🤣

5:57 What?! Wait a minute, you don't fight Chaos? That's so dumb! For fucking sake, he was one of the selling points. God fucking dammit!

Here's the first step in making a good sonic game sega. 1. Get rid of the fucking automation and give us full control.

"Wait for a price drop." Playstation: we got your back.

Two years later & I still go back to that amazing speech at 14:17

Sonic Forced me to not pay alimony.

well turns out believe it or not this actually WAS made by new blood yeah turns out Sonic Forces was made by a bunch of Newbies meanwhile the original designers were moved up to higher positions in the company yep, even after they promised the people who made Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations working on this game turns out the designers never worked on a sonic game, Period

Its embarrassing to remember that “Mario Odyssey vs Sonic Forces” was a thing

what makes me upset is that iizuka said no adventure 3 because "they dont want to repeat themselves"

I have an idea that could have made the story 10 times better. Classic sonic being just a figment of tails imagination.

I actually made a character similar to your bird, but he’s a hedgehog and has a mustache. I call him “Quintessential British Gentleman the Hedgehog.”

That whole "Sonic's been tortured" thing was added for the western localization.

It is really weird how the sonic series can provide the best or the worst experience at the same time.

Finally...Blonic is officially canon

"Nope, sorry Johnny. but we want to move forward with the Sonic franchise. We aren't looking to go back just to please a small group of fans that liked heavily flawed games like SA/2. Enjoy more of your Green hill. Deal wit it." -Sonic Team

When a classic fanboy like Johnny is asking you to pull the plug on the annoyingly pointless nostalgic pandering, you know you've milked the old days dry.

Damn... I just love how this guy talks. Some of the best damn reviews come out of this channel. Good job as always. Pity Sonic Team can't seem to really care or understand what Sonic is all about

Damn son you uploaded quick. Also I agree, Blaze should have been in the game, she's one of the best characters and so underused!

my biggest problem with the game is the absurdly short levels, its as johnny said, just when you finally start to enjoy yourself, the stage ends..... they also removed the drift, one of my favorite things from sonic generations....now turning tight corners is automatic, which is as insulting as it can get. "edit: personally i think the perfect lenght for a sonic stage is between 3 to 4 minutes, above 4 it starts to wear out its welcome like planet wisp in generations, and below 3 it becomes underwhelming like most sonic colors acts and this game" its interesting how classic death egg clearly tries to be like the one from sonic & knuckles...but the music is just awful (i like most classic tracks of this game, but even i have to admit that one is shit) at this rate they should've just remixed the one from s&k

They need to give ma boi Silver another chance. (Sonic Adventure 3?)

With Sonic 2022 on the horizon I came back for the speech at the end, I genuinely wonder how this series is gonna move forward

This game I have mix feelings.There was a spark but sadly it didn't ignite.I'm fine with it but wish it was better. I do like mostly the avatar parts with the variety of the wispons and the customization, Modern Sonics levels were ok but were too short(same with the other levels), and finally classic Sonic levels ain't no Mania for sure.Can't really stand the classic sonic level music in this game.Right now I'm just playing it to unlock clothing and see other avatars with the SOS missions.

Couldn't agree more with your unscripted bit, Sonic Team just feels like they're making games because they have to but Sonic deserves way better. There needs to be serious shakeups in SEGA.

They do need to do another adventure styled game. With good story and memorable music and nice animated cutscenes. Also decent character development would be nice lol

So...coming back to this video after playing frontiers...well...it makes me want to play more frontiers

I like how you emphasized it's not bad... it's just kinda there. What needs to happen more than anything is for Sega itself to step in and pull in Odyssey by hiring new people who grew up with this series and create that new adventure style game. I think the current sonic team at this point has proven they don't care or at least are incompetent to make sonic be anything more than fine, so until Sega steps in and does something; we'll probably end up getting the same shit

I agree with what you said at the end while not doing literally adventure 3 but do the sonic tails and knuckles adventure 1 style gameplay while also bringing other characters such as shadow, espio, rouge, etc.

Maybe they should just let fans make their 3d Sonic games as well...

Sonic Unleashed and the Adventure games set the bar too high and now here's the results.

Why can't we get a Sonic game where they only focus on one style of play and polish the shit out of it. Instead of having multiple mediocre styles.

Hey Sonic Team. 14:24 You're welcome! All jokes aside, I think you hit the nail on the head in the end. I think the boost formula just isn't doing Sonic any justice. I mean hell, imagine working on a level pathway for months with beautiful level aesthetics.... only to have the player fly through it in less than a second with the boost button. That's why I believe Sonic Team is drained. The boost formula is too automatic for the player. And building levels for that formula sounds like hell. Its time to meet the middle man and do the adventure formula. Great review Johnny! -Sam :)

5:45 Johnny: The gang finds out that Eggman has been torturing [Sonic] for the six months he's been gone. Silver in game: No way! That's excellent! Yeah. It truly is.

The fact that the main reason on why Infinite is the way he is, because Shadow called him weak is pathetic. Here's how i would've done it. My reason on why infinite has gone over to the dark side (and the deep end) is because he wanted to get revenge on Shadow for wiping out his entire squad and avenging said squad, and going after ANYOJE that shadow knows. shadow calling him weak was the straw that broke the camel's back, thus causing infinite to go insane after feeling intense guilt for not trying harder alongside his comrades. Then he would go after anyone that shadow knows which is why he would go after Rouge and Omega, shadow's closest comrades (using that word a lot huh?) He eventually met up with Eggman and push comes to shove, the two strike a deal to achieve each other's goals, Eggman gives Infinte the Phantom Ruby so that he can destroy shadow once and for all IF Infinte destroys Sonic. But that's how i would handle infinite's story in Forces.

More like: “Sonic Team Forces out another one” Yes, I’m aware I’ve made this joke before but my ego is fragile and the only thing keeping me from ending it all is validation from my friendly peers on the internet

_sees the ending_ True sign of a Sonic fan right there... (Wipes away tear)

13:58 I can't stop replaying this lmaoooo!!! someone really thought we were getting a Sonic Forces Retrospective. Not even "KingK" is touching that shit

Thank you for saying we need Sonic Adventure type of gameplay again. I've been wanting that type of gameplay with Sonic again for a while...

Finally, Character the Creator is canon.

I sense a disturbance in the Force. ...s

3:39 That reference is very apropos in hindsight, given that Jim Carrey is in the Sonic movies.

Everything about this game feels shallow and uninspired.

Reminder that Johnny got a fucking death threat on twitter over this game and all he said was, “you sound angry”

Okay, where's that butthurt guy? *later edit) For anyone in the future who gets confused by this comment. here's a link (hopefully twitter will still be up.) twitter.com/Somecallmejon/status/929156542909353985

Tails: Sonic,Help Me! Me: TAILS YOU BEAT CHAOS 4 YOU SHOULD NOT BE SCARED OF CHAOS 0!

It's really funny seeing all the Jim Carrey references in this 3 year old video

God that last segment, so real and so true. I honestly thought that maybe Sonic Team would get the help of the Mania team, but the part of the game which I honest to God thought was there only for quality control, to be sure it was good, ended up being the most half assed attempt at recreating the classic games we've ever seen. Worse that Sonic 4 Episode II, but still, not awful, just so mediocre and uninteresting.

They need to *STOP PLAYING IT SO SAFE.* Sonic Team and SEGA *NEED* to stop giving us half-written and half-baked stories, they need to deliver a full and cohesive storytelling, with good interesting plots that get fleshed out. *STOP* making Sonic happy 99% of the time, it literally downplays *ANY* dangerous situation he's and virtually kills *ANY* tension and drama. Dial back on the automation in the levels, I've been playing Sonic for decades, I've played almost every game besides the weird Game Gear ones, and Sonic Forces feels like only 3 things happen during gameplay: 1. It's a straight line with enemies lined to get boosted/mowed down. 2.QTE (Quick Time Event) just waiting for the right time to press a button or button mash, game plays itself afterwards basically. 3. The controls are fully taken away from the player, you just watch Sonic running and doing stuff, but it's not "You" the player, doing *ANYTHING*. ENOUGH with the Green Hill and Chemical Plant, it was good in Generations, and Mania was pushing it a little (Mostly because Christian Whitehead WANTED to do *ALL* original levels, but fucking Izuka got the final say, and he wanted to do the "Nostalgia Pandering" with the 60/40 ratio of old levels to new levels), but it's time to fucking stop showing Green Hill, this isn't a damn Mario game, Green Hill doesn't have to be the "De-Facto" 1st level or the tutorial level, and Chemical Plant doesn't have to be the "De-Facto" 2nd level to Green Hill. Get Classic Sonic out of here, he was useless both in the story and in gameplay, both Modern Sonic AND the Custom Avatar have 2D in their respective levels, hell even more than the automated 3D, having Classic Sonic's 2D was completely redundant and unnecessary, plus his physics are still bad, maybe even worse than Generations Classic Sonic, so what's the point in having him playable if he doesn't play like how he should? *Just stop using him!* Anyway, there's more I wanted to say, but I think that's enough ranting, of course this is just how I feel how Sonic Forces stopped itself from being a great Sonic game.

I don't give a rats ass if Mania ties in with this. Forces is not canon as far as I care. But then again, what even is canon at this point...

I'm a longtime viewer. Going on around 6 years now and you are still one of the best video game reviewers out there. Your videos are always entertaining and I want to thank you for all of the great entertainment throughout the years.

What a fucking world. SEGA basically includes a fan game into canon by tying it into an official sega game. The offical SEGA game is the one that feels undeserving of being connected.

15:25 Actually they did bring in some new blood. THe level designers of Forces are new members of Sonic Team. Why they didn't bring in the level designers of Generations is beyond me. Forces isn't a bad game. I'd play this and the Wii U/PC version of Lost World over the other Meh SOnic games like Heroes, Shadow and Black Knight. but FOrces could've been so much more.

You can feel the pained disappointment at 6:13.

Yes i think Modern Sonic needs fans to work on the games too. Look at fan projects like "Sonic World" an Adventure style Sonic game with multiple characters to play as and you can even play it up to a team of 3 like heroes. Sadly Izuka thinks an adventure style game would "hold the franchise back" despite he himself is holding the franchise back by cramming Classic Sonic and Green hill in every game. Not hating classic but he's kinda overused at this point plus he should be reserved for 2D games for the classic era style.

Adding classic Sonic in was such a huge mistake

I think the main problem is that sonic team tried to cater to all different branches of the fan base and completely lost focus on creating something original with the modern era.

This was almost 4 years ago. This was almost 4 years ago....

I kinda want to see a return to the style used in lost world. I feel that with more open level design and refinement of sonic’s overall control could make a great game.

The Sonic Unleashed (AKA "Boost") Style of gameplay is fun but I agree they should go back to the Adventure Style.

None of this is good vector that’s why it’s called “sonic forces”

I feel like if Classic Sonic wasn't in the game, there would've been more focus to Sonic and the Avatar (despite the huge amount of focus the avatar has), and overall the game just... doesn't feel fun when you're collecting everything and after you've nearly completed the Avatar customisation options.

5:18 (hey that's my birthday lol) Modern Sonic to Classic Sonic: "It's been generations since I've seen you. You ok?" Sonic Team, you rascals you.

No Johnny, don't! Frassupo is going to flip out on Twitter again.

"Yet for some bizarre region, Silver's here so I had to fill in the gap somehow!" I died laughing at this for some reason! Also, Silver DLC please to explain this question?

Ayyyee this is Johnny's 29th video to hit a million plus views Such an underrated channel, man

Love the ending part of this video. Johnny did a really great job in trying to make himself heard to both SEGA and Sonic Team. Whether they will respond to his message or not - I don’t know. It would be great if they did.