I’m not sure if firing Joy on the spot was correct (someone smarter than me can debate that) but imagine your boss asks you to explain a mess you were in charge of and your response is “let’s side bar that “ and then you openly call out the boss’s nepotism to their face. That boss will probably fire you .
She is correct about the issues she is raising with him. When you dealing with/ trying to attract top talent who are key to the success of your projects, she would be remiss not to talk to him about that. We are talking about the movie and creative industry, top stars can, will and have shied away from productions funded by the far right. And Mencken was evil.
I think that it is amazing that mencken is mentioned in every single episode, is like he's a huge presence happening under ground. Exited to see when he shows up
Logan wanted to fire Gerri and Cyd for no reason, Roman at least had a reason to fire Gerri because she wants to get rid of him and Kendall to take over.
Love how Nicholas Britell is so humble when showcasing successions soundtrack, as if he isn’t making one of the best tv show soundtracks I’ve ever heard.
season 4 is shaping up to be my favorite. the payoff is incredible. i have a feeling the end of this episode, with the wave coming down on kendall as he rides his high, signifies everything is about to go to shit
I have never looked forward to the end of a show so much as I have this show. Normally its like how will there end it, but with this show it kind of feels like real life!
@William McCormick It's the literal definition of passive aggressiveness, saying the opposite of what you're inferring. It's blatant, yes, but because somethings blatant doesn't make it not passive aggressive.
He gave her 2 chances,and when she laughed at the mention of him firing her i think he had to do it. It became a matter of respect and if she's going to laugh at something that serious being on the table at this moment it shows shes not taking anything about Roman Seriously enough to do what he wants her to do.
@@Turkeysubs21 idk I think being hugely overbudget on a project already costing 100s of millions and refusing to even have a conversation about it is a pretty reasonable reason to get fired.
@@Uptomyknees shes been doing it for ages for decades and here comes arlequin with barely two day experience firing people on a whim because they refuse to bow to him
@@EughhBrothereughh people can be in jobs for decades and get complacent as well; she should’ve told him who was the problem rather than trying to keep him out of it. She then also tries to get him to agree to backing off Mencken to appease Hollywood insiders (which he rightfully points out as hypocrisy); she was trying to get him to capitulate while offering nothing in return despite the fact that, technically, he is her superior
Roman: So….I fired Joy and I may need to roll that back. But then I fired Gerri when she called me on it, so we may need to roll that back also. Ken: 🧐🤔 Maybe it plays. …You gonna fire me also Rome? Karl? Frank? 😂😂
yeah it´s funny. Gerri told him that it would've been a good call, but only if he was logan. They only questioned them out of being begineers more than out of the choices per se.
except that Roman is not Logan, so Roman shouldn't do this. The same applies to all the kids, trying to project a different personality trait of their father's and it inevitably blowing up in their face
@@21lacla It's not about them being "beginners", it's about Roman not having earned the credibility to make decisions like this. Roman cannot afford to be known as an emotional wildcard when he hasn't even established himself as a leader.
The Gerri firing was a mistake but this one she clearly had it coming especially for a division head of a division that is losing money. He gave her multiple chances and she was way too dismissive and insubordinate. His only mistake was firing her right there. He should have ended the meeting and then contacted HR to start the process of terminating her employment.
She told him that she will do exactly he requested. And then raised an important point - Mencken - that may affect productions and "big personalities." because their talent pool all hate him. Enforced Error on Roman's part. He is trying out his 'trying to be Dad thing' for the very first time' here, and it does NOT go down well.
While Roman is spiraling here and totally out of control - he was right to make this call. Joy thinks she has leverage - she doesn’t. She thinks she doesn’t need to address problems at the studio - that makes her one of them. Joy completely dropped the facade because it was Roman she was sitting with and not someone like his father. She forgot that money is real and that isn’t going to just magically appear in her hands falling from the sky. You have to do a job. She got a reality check quick.
It doesn't change the fact that roman is acting out of impulse and being emotional.....he wants his employees to fear him the same way they did with Logan and the truth is he not Logan and he needs to earn it
Lol there are thousands of people in showbiz that dont give a shit about politics and just want stable income. To suggest that you cant create profitable motion pictures because the political biases of the talent pool is insane. She then went on to insult her boss and laugh at even the prospect of being fired...Roman made the right decision for sure. Should have went HR first, but her priorities were definently wack.
I think Roman was right to fire her, the studio was out of control and she was refusing to give any real answers while trying assert faux moral superiority.
@Cat Brat the studio executive tried to push her weight around with one of the owners of Fox News/ATN, pretending like she cares about "democratic institutions" and waxing poetic about the "values" of the people in her industry (Hollywood) and he shot it down REAL quick. He called her out for what everyone knows about their "ruthlessly segregated" town, and he wasn't having any of it, it's all IP. Michael Jordan put it perfectly a long time ago, Republicans buy sneakers too. It was very cathartic.
@@catbrat7124 she did not take accountability for recent f* up, tried to brush it aside. When being told she would get extra funding all she managed to come up with is that they have exciting stuff, so no real plan. Was more concerened with political outlook and Roman called bs right away on those self-rightous rich democrats, who create even more social divisions. Then she just laughed in his face showing no respect towards him when he said he could fire her. She's a capital B biotch. Hence satisfying.
@@catbrat7124 because that lady is the embodiment of pompous holier than thou hollywood elites that are so annoying and out of touch that they make Roman Roy look smart and humble
@@catbrat7124 Kendall scoring a W (even though it might not pan out), Roman having his downward spiral, Tom and Shiv mending their very weird relationship, Greg stepping up, Logan returning in some form
Lmao. Feels like Bob Iger walking into Marvel asking who’s gonna get fired for Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania. A few weeks later they offered up Victoria Alonso. Succession is so current, it’s crazy.
Gotta love it. Going back to this scene, it is clear she had to go. You don’t come to the ceo with problems instead of solutions, attitude instead of excitement.
actually a more closer parallel, which I believe did happen, was Murdoch walking into FOX studios demanded head rolls over Titanic being overbudget. I think the EP was fired, then rehired or something like that. VF did a feature story on it. Anyway lucky break
No it doesn’t tho. He actually came in asking for hits and guaranteeing funding and this crazy chick thought she had the power to change coverage on a news station not under her power.
@@johnjungkook2721 Imagine thinking you could be flat out disrespectful to your boss and not get anything back? She tried to gain leverage and it didn't work. Roman did the right thing
She didnt want to talk about Kalistropon or whatever is called, the movie that hey have to invest millions into saving that the swedes didnt like either, she deflected that into ATN stuff that cant be changed as easily and the whole conversation belitted him, unprofessional. couldnt play her cards correctly, by just thanking him for the money but she choosed to open belitting his grief like what the hell.
Yep, which is why Roman fired her - she wanted to leverage the political climate of Hollywood so that "talent" could effectively dictate what ATN does in coverage. At that point, he knows the "money hose" won't fix the tentpole movie and never will help again. So Joy had to go.
Joy didn't play well here...she didn't read Roman's need to assert his authority. She was condescending and tried to skirt the issue. She was thinking....I just need to appease him, get him off my back, he doesn't need to know. But Roman was right to call into question the cost overruns in the movie. And then she laughed when he said "I could fire you." EGO! She should have acknowledged those concerns immediately and it might have saved her job.
On first viewing, and on a re-watch, it very much seemed like Roman was right to do this, as Joy was clearly not taking him seriously. I guess we'll see if it was indeed the right move!
I lowkey agree - especially if he's trying to tank the deal getting rid of people in powerful positions who do want it and being able to replace them with people under his thumb seems like the right move
@@ronbenitez641 These men are just co signing anything. This isn't how you let go of highly visible excecutives. Roman fired her because the idea of people recognising his ineptitude frightens him. He legit lashed out and judging by his body language, he's ashamed about it.
@@hillaryoi8946 oh no bad men making decisions. Of course it is an irratic choice, but he also has to make a precedent, they are not giving him any chance whatsoever. He is ashamed of condescendance, gerri did the same thing. And the fact is, is not about the decision itself. She told him it would've been a good move.... if he was his dad. They are just being punished of not having the name logan roy, even though it is correct that they are unqualyfied,.
Joy minimizing, side stepping, downplaying, trying to outshine, being slightly condescending and then telling Rome “you are where you are for a very good reason” meaning he’s not CEO, got her ass fired
Yep, it doenst matter if Roman's new. If you make a movie about hibernating robots and dont feel like you need to explain that to your boss who runs the biggest company in entertainment, you might have issues.
Right call from Roman tbh. Sort of felt like this whole money sink movie was a powerplay from Joy. When questioned she refused to elaborate on the specifics of why there's production issues, just ended up pushing the idea that the movie is shitty because they can't attract good talent due to the parent company leaning right. If Roman capitulated she'd know she has ATN by the balls.
@@Heisenberg-gp1kt I think she was the wife of some guy Barry killed and she and her son got a harebrained idea they'd assassinate and assassin, even though they were just regular people.
I don’t know…who insults the co-ceo after their dad dies during a bad spending budget spree? She had no authority or leverage to defend herself from a firibg
I am totally down with him firing her. Maybe I wouldn't be if it wasn't such a perfectly acted scene. From the very start of the conversation her tone and aura is one of superiority to Roman, and she should be scared for her job after the f up with the movie. Good firing imo.
This'll most likely bite him in the ass, and he clearly is not coping well, but... she kinda sucks, doesn't she? Comes in knowing she's not handling a big mess well, tries to sidestep it, makes a huge ask, and is condescending and passive agressive when she doesn't get it. Obviously he could've handled this a lot better, and firing Gerri just shows how off the handle he is, but... yeah, she sucks.
Don’t think so - I think he assumed that telling her that he was going to throw a ton of money at her was going to lead her to tell him she’d solve the issues. He wasn’t expecting to hear that talent has issues with ATN’s political leanings nor was he expecting to receive any pushback on how ATN was run.
It was a right decision, Roman has a great intuition. Remember he was right about Vaulter! Joy had her own agenda, and she screwed herself up by being condescending and not realizing what she was dealing with.
I'd like to hear your thoughts. To me Roman had every right to fire her, she blatently disrespected him and her job is literally to make good movie that bring revenue..... He came to talk about the shitshow movie and she didn't actually care, her focus was on her politics which she was clearly using to get more leverage in the future. If Roman did what she asked and actually pulled support for Macken, she'd have em by the balls.
Let's sidebar your comment. I have..... concerns about your avatar. The dog....... could it not be a flower? Or a fish? Dog are meat eaters, and that doesnt play well with my friends. Anyway, im sure you wrote what you wrote.... for a *very good* reason.
Roman doesnt even have the conviction to believe he even fired her. Didnt he later say to Gerri, i didnt Fire fire her, just move here somewhere else. Its all emotional. Logan wouldn't fire creative talent, he knows what brings in those $$$ in movies.
Thank you cos i was thinking who this Rando chick reminds me of and when you said Amy pascal and Walter Hamada or might I add Kathleen Kennedy as well. So yh Roman was right to fire her cos she fucking lost hundreds of millions of dollars in this shit blockbuster movie for example (Solo, Ant Man 3) and he’s saying who’s getting the chop and her disrespect when she wouldn’t even DARE to contemplate doing that to Logan generally sums up that he was right into firing her.
Firing her on the spot is obviously wrong, but she was definitely overplaying her hand, i mean, she isn't in a position of much leverage after being in charge for such a shitshow and had the nerve to ask for atn to stop supporting Mencken
Roman was right to fire her cos she just fucking lost hundreds of millions of dollars in this shit blockbuster movie and he’s saying who’s getting the chop and her disrespect when she wouldn’t even DARE to contemplate doing that to Logan generally sums up that he was right into firing her.
To jokingly say "everybody does" is response to your boss saying he has thoughts about your garbage division is not great 😂 Firing Joy was right, could've waited a week or so hahaha
Having been in various echelons of media and entertainment companies, the principal matter at hand here is that of Roman acting like a petulant, unprofessional, inexperienced moron. He enters a meeting with an important high level executive and rejects her condolences like an errant schoolboy. Telling a subordinate executive you are going to "throw money at them" immediately signals his lack of seriousness as a business thinker. How much and when and under what conditions and with what purpose: no one "throws money" at a division. He then rattles off generic categories he would like addressed, with no discussion of strategy or current financial status or opportunity. If a senior executive goes into a meeting with an issue and a high ranking exec asks that it be held for a moment as a sidebar, they can either say, no, really, let's talk about that now, or say fine, let's go through our agenda first, then come back to it within the hour. It's a meeting communication issue not evidence that it will not be addressed. She passed on a concern re ATN, legit or not, of a significant portion of key stakeholders and talent in the company. His answer about segregation and fault lines was dismissive and, frankly, stupid. Any middle manager should be able to respond by saying, I hear you, this is our position, and express even feigned openness and consideration. Firing offense? Not. Her laugh at his suggestion she could be fired was a nervous laugh, WTF, and understandable. Firing someone at that level without a corporate process in place re replacement and impact, with the help of legal, HR, and corporate leadership demonstrates his preening narcissism and sense of entitlement. Her remark re there is a reason he is in his position is a response to his - once again - weird comment. She is doing her best to field his erratic comments. Could have been better but in real time, he was creating an unstable meeting tone. If Logan would have done the same thing, it would have been with a plan, with deep, decades-long experience knowing the dynamics of the situation and business impacts, and surely a balance of his egotistical impulse with a sense of whether it was right for shareholders and the company, including himself as major shareholder. Roman put his insecurity and need for insipid display of power before the interests of the company. If Joy erred at all in not fielding certain childlike bits of verbal vomit thrown her way, it was largely if not entirely due to Roman's shocking and stupid behavior. Firing her in this way deeply damages the credibility of the company and the ability of it to retain talent.
Thanks for taking the time to write this, I couldn't agree with you more. Glad to find a comment that actually makes sense in the middle of so much drivel.
@@rtwandre You're welcome. And I didn't even include his opening inexcusable and rather outrageous personal attack against Matsson, the new owner of the company. From that point, he deserved no respect and signaled every moment in the meeting would be unpredictable and irrational. He can have whatever opinion he likes - that peculiar attack was alarming to an executive whose future was tied to the new owners .
@@wanderer263 Thanks. It may well be that someone needs to be fired, or it may be that a change in funding process and priorities is needed in a business that involves necessary risk and big bets on opportunities, and it may be that this woman is no longer the right fit for the job, but there is zero justification for any part of how Roman executed in this scene. He is a punk (sorry Kieran!).
The best way Roman could have handled this was if he had projected his power from the start and get Joy to do what he wants. He started off polite and she took that as a weakness. He pretty much accepted all her transgressions, and she thought she could get away with it all. He gave in to her questioning when he should have been as dismissive as her and actually confront her bullshit. Instead he only showed his power at the end which would have been fine if he had the intention of firing her from the start (which I doubt). As for Joy Palmer, she was 'in the wrong' the whole time but I don't think that's what matters. I don't think firing was the most productive outcome. Getting her to recognize/respect his authority would have better/waste less time, unless you agree with Kendall's spin (which tends to be hyped up bullshit).
Annabeth Gish is great at playing these "polite yet infuriating" characters, just like in Haunting of Hill House. The characters both here and there were otherwise well-intentioned, but it was hard to see through the condescension.
All the comments here saying he did something good or badass have ZERO understanding of what actually happened in this scene. Roman made a very quick irrational move that's going to backfire on him.
I really hate to sounds like a Stan but these episodes are getting too peak, Roman has been on a different time, you can see it in his expressions this season
This scene entranced me. I'm copying my very messy reddit post. I'm hedging my bets that -- maybe they play with this -- but that ultimately, Roman accurately sniffed out some bullshit from her because the FIRST thing she said was downplaying the question he asked. Which was like... what was it. Why are we burning money? Who are you firing? She says -- well ACTUALLY it's more complicated than that. I might be wronggg but maybe she is the one actually responsible for these things? Or one of her subordinates and or puppets? Let's not forget (surprise surprise) Waystar attracts... unsavory types. From time to time. So yeah I'm sick I can't articulate it but that first question and answer at the dinner table between them was very fucking sus. I do firmly believe the Gerri "firing" (lol) was some power trip weird grief denial come and worship me like I'm actually my dad kind of shit.. so... I do firmly believe Roman's character was wrong to do that. Makes no sense. Even Kendall explains in a succinct way that it makes no sense. Shiv's godmother? Uh yeah, okay. edit: rando: my sincere condolences (just being polite, has smile on face) RR: no thanks. rando: grief hasn't hit you yet. (it already has as we saw with Mattson previous episode.) RR: denial. rando: how's lukas. RR: He's great. (immediately talks shit after saying this.) rando: words. RR: Kalispitron. Who's getting fired for that SS? Rando: (she makes a deadcat face) I can certainly loop you in but it is complicated. (She looks visibly uncomfortable compared to how airy and smiling and polite she was moments ago) ... Shall we just side bar that? (let's not talk about it. Touches ear. Gestures.) Lots of big personalities. RR: Oh! Big personalities. (internally thinking wow what a powerful insight. Actually this kind of goes hand in hand with the sort of mocking Logan does in the cold open? Or the opening. Whatever. Logan like reflects their question/criticism of him "oh is THAT how it should be?" RR: Yeah I can't see that happening again. (Kieran face movements. Skeptical.) Rando: I've been taking it very seriously. (Again. She says while smiling. Is this what serious sounds like?...) RR: Good. (Change of subject. Does what Greg has the audio editor do. Figure it out and we both make a lot of money even if it might be impossible type shit.) Let's turn on the money hose for you. We need your confidence. Rando: Absolutely. (Now SHE changes the subject. From money and production to Mencken and values... so... this I don't know maybe she is authentic about this orr maybe she's just full of fucking shit and worried about the optics of it...) There's one thing we're concerned about. (Even more awkward ear touching from her. Hard for her to bring it up to RR.) The rightward lean from ATN... (Horrible shit but literally this is unfortunately their entire f*cking brand from the get-go... IRL, people pay 'sin taxes' or something for being employed by Facebook/Meta/Trump... something like that.) RR: (Awkwardly sips water aggressively) Mmhm mhm yeah. (Brushing her off.) Rando: Getting a lot of questions about ATNs favoritism towards Mencken. (Questions from who?...Like internally or externally but okay, alright.) Is there anything you can do? (Sounds like she wants him to dial it back but I wonder if any concession at all is bad.) RR: He's IP. (Sounds like he is saying we both share the same thoughts and feelings maybe, but that he does not want to do anything about it.) Rando: We have values here. (I wonder if this is supposed to imply that maybe they're not getting the best from their workers and or talent because of this values dissonance?? That's like the most generous I can be towards the character.) RR: I love the values. (Sounds like he is saying NOTHING to me. Just word play to appease and move on.) RR: I feel like you're not really listening to me on -- that I'm just going to dump a ton of money on you? All we want is to get the hit machine pumping. (So... I mean it seems like they're at an impasse between... if this character is not fake or malicious... she or her talent might not do what Roman is asking because of values dissonance and you know... the ick factor. I wonder if they're both sort of not listening to each other here or if Roman is projecting that fact that he's not really listening to her.) RR: Word pasta of franchising and international marketing. (He gets it.) Rando: Yes. Got it. Very exciting. (Sounds like she gets it too.) RR: Alright Joy I get it -- you're thinking. (I definitely think he is projecting now.) The fuck does this guy know about anything? He's not his dad he can't do it. Rando Joy: I'm sure you are where you are for a very good reason. (NOT sincere. Who the f*ck are you, you don't know this person. Ass kissing.) RR: I could just fire you. (Very common tactic we see ALL the time in this show and ALL the time in real life... puts a statement out there and lets it hang) Rando Joy: ...Laughs it off. RR: That's a funny joke? I could. Rando Joy: interrupts. RR: Also interrupts. I'm not saying I am! (But he is saying he is. He is saying that. He is retracting what he says here much like Logan has done probably more times than I could count.) I'm just saying I could. (Really interesting gestures it sounds like he is both flexing his power and really honing in on her next words here.) Although maybe I should (now it seems like his f*cking with here completely here. Puts his fingers to his lips. Reminds me of Season 1 when he told Ken 'can we think about it?' Which was an obvious ploy because he already DID think about it and already had his answer prepared... so he is probably just fucking with her and maybe this whole thing was pre-planned by Roman on the golf cart ride here. The only thing that would be changing that would be. Will she bend? Will she acquiesce to his demands of churning hits for money and fuck everything else.) RR: Out tentpole is bullshit and out of control and you're not going to fix it so I'm calling it. (He sounds deadly serious here and very very certain about what he's saying. It sounds like he is tacking on the apologies as some perfunctory word play but I think this line here is pretty much all he really wanted to say to her.) Joy: Seething with anger. RR: Fires her basically. Joy: Seething intensifies. Joy: (off screen) this is a mistake. RR: Okay.
Human beings havent changed and wont change for millions of years. We have the basic things that make us hunan, pride, dignity etc. Disrespecting a man like Roman Roy and trying to dictate to him who he puts on his tv station is not only disrespecting but a power play . If he didnt fire her , the next time she would demand something more. So Roman was right to fire her, and no matter what happens in the end , he did the right thing with Geri too. You cant have an employee questioning you and belittling you like that.
Roman isn't Logan. Logan was an experienced titan who knew how to play people, deal with blowback, or atleast get someone to handle the blowback for him and had a reputation as someone you respect and fear. Roman has a reputation as a clown. Now he's doing what his father would do, fire people for disrespecting him, without the credibility, experience or confidence to back it up. After firing someone he keeps asking others to clean it up whereas Logan would have a plan in place beforehand, not let his emotions show and fire someone as a reflex.
