The dismissive and patronizing attitude towards Dave really shows how these groups keep their members in check. I might be sensitive, but I found Paul to be very passive aggressive.
Just the intro though it was absolutely terrible. I was watching this and I'm like "oh this is going to be absolutely great this is just going to be an entire video of Dave being s*** on isn't it?"
You're not being too sensitive. You're currently experiencing functional people-sensors. We don't need to take offense on Dave's behalf or anything, I think he can handle himself, but yes. Paul is, in fact, a rather rude and immature person.
I feel like Paul and Morgan want to be deep and have those thoughtful conversations, but then they get uncomfortable when they encounter people with actual depth. They're not mature enough to have real thoughtful conversations, and then they deflect or make jokes. It screams immaturity and insecurity.
Exactly. When you’re unwilling and unable to even seriously consider the *possibility* that there’s merit to scholarship or criticism that differs from yours, one is left with stunted intellectual & emotional growth. When directly faced with it, they have nothing to argue.
I agree. I think this is an interesting series, but I don't think they're right for this. I think someone like Dav, who can see the gray in things, and who is far less judgemental would be the kind of Christian who could host this series. It helps that I find him far more likable in general too.
@@CharlesPayet And they have nothing of value to bring to the conversation. They just regurgitate what they heard someone else say, but usually it's in the wrong context or very surface level. It's like bringing a garden spade to a construction site...thanks but, we need something to dig deeper.
Mine would simply be to point out that you can't be too open-minded. Just like you can't be too rational. People who say that have misunderstood the concept of open-mindedness.
I was interested in his method of "thought-stopping," because that is exactly what that was. If something is the truth with a capital "T" then it can withstand deconstruction and introspection. Paul comes across as someone that's deathly afraid of what 7 days alone with his thoughts and doubts would discover about himself.
Paul and Morgan are fucking disgusting for isolating Bethany to (in MY opinion) INTERROGATE her about Dave’s beliefs and make passive aggressive digs at their relationship. Absolutely GROSS.
I couldn’t agree more. Honestly though, as much as I dislike girl defined, she held her own and I’m glad she didn’t cower to these bullies. But also, what did they expect? Bethy to start gossiping about her husband to them?
I was mostly listening to the episode and didn't realize he wasn't in the back seat with Paul until I saw your comments. I was thinking _Dāv has some serious self control not to chime in._
I think P&M are genuinely in shock that a married couple can disagree on things and still have a healthy relationship. And I think that they are shocked that Bethy is open to exploring new points of view (with Dav's guidance) even though its scary to her. P&M strike me as the type of Christians that believe that even just entertaining a new thought or belief will automatically turn you into a full blown atheist. Don't get me wrong, I'm still not a fan of Bethy (or Girl Defined) but I was pleasantly surprised that she is open to going to a different church and exploring new ideas. It's unfortunate that she still insists on going back to her Girl Defined audience and doubling down on harmful beliefs and messages to young women.
This video humanized Bethany for me. On the other hand I felt like P&M were cartoonish and condescending. I got the impression that Paul likes to pretend to be introspective but he’s really just waiting for his turn to talk.
"he's just waiting for his turn to talk" PERFECTLY sums up Paul. I hate how he constantly jumps in or interrupts people he's talking with, even Morgan. Especially Morgan. I feel like he just likes the sound of his voice and he thinks he's all that
The frustrating thing about Bethany is that she seems to be caught between two personas. "Girl defined" Bethy and the real Bethy who is still figuring out who she is. I wish she'd be brave enough to speak her own mind within Girl Defined and not make videos about how motherhood is not a choice and erotica is of the devil.
@@bradiedean7466 yes, true. It's just such a stark contrast that it's almost jarring. I bet there will come a day that her evolving views are incongruent with GD. And we shall see where her inner compass guides her.
It's something a LOT of us can relate to. I've always had 'two lives'... Fundie irl me, online me. It's a headspin and it takes a lot of time to really wrestle down with authenticity. What do I actually believe, what is performative, who am I trying to placate. Some of that was performatism online, some was performatism irl, and sometimes it really is me at the same time - contradictory yes but nuanced. She's said and done a lot of hurtful things but the RECENT video - as in the one dropped hours ago - gives me hope one day she may really knuckle down on self evaluation the way Dav has done. She doesn't have to leave the faith, not at all, I am still Christian wholeheartedly. But more coming from a place of true nuance rather than regurgitated theology. But it is scary. I get it. We are told if we question or disagree, that's a one way ticket to Hell. She's probably EXTREMELY scared for both Dav and herself, and I think we do need to (especially after this bombshell video) keep that in mind.
idk i don't really get that, so much of what she said in the car ride portion of the interview felt to me like she was hinting at she doesn't take Daves deconstruction seriously. like she thinks he will get over it and jsut keep being religious and not eventually he will get tired of pretending to be religious.
As someone that left fundamentalism, I think it can be a tedious and slow process to shake free of that mindset due to the ingrained thought-stopping techniques which are reinforced every Sunday. I was really encouraged when she said they stopped going to her lifelong church and are now going to the more laid back Lutheran Church in contrast to a fundamentalist non-denomination church. Sometimes in my 7 year journey out, I took two steps forward and then took three backwards. I am optimistic that Bethany will get there - eventually - *as long as she and Dave continue to have a solid relationship.* Because of her internet influencer position + her over bearing fundamentalist mother, I suspect there is some "sunk cost fallacy" going on that will slow her her self awareness and change. I do think there will be a day in the next 12-24 months where she will have to make a choice between Dave and her new family or her fundamentalist family.... well that is if that day hasn't happened already. But there's hope. It took me 7 years to walk out and another 10 to accept myself and be comfortable that I had no longer believed in the Abrahamic God. I am now a regular everyday person that is a LGBTQ ally, I believe diversity is the key to humankind being successful in the future, I accept evolution is a fact (though to be fair, on of my stumbling blocks always was the book of Genesis - even in youth Bible study I had questions my Sunday school teachers couldn't answer). I advocate for consent being taught to our preteens and that the blurring of gender roles is a positive thing.... so it is possible. Quick shout out to Genetically Modified Skpetic, his videos helped me on my journey to accept there is nothing wrong with being a skeptic, or even an atheist.
The thing i like about Dave, beyond respecting his being willing to think critically and deal with the uncomfortable, is how genuinely respectful and empathetic he acts towards even those he disagrees with. I think if more Christians would do that, the church work be a lot less traumatic for a lot of people
I took Bethany and Kristen's shared look as a look of "WE'RE the most hated? What about you guys?" I don't think they're unaware of how much people dislike them, but it was more a moment of sisterly silent shared shade.
lol I thought the same and I kind of loved it. I’m not a fan of how their passive aggression hurts young women, but I LOVED seeing it in the context of two sisters having the same shady thought about what some lame guy said
Yeah I agree it's probably Paul and Morgan. Girl Defined has a much wider group of haters (and people who have heard of them) because Trixie Mattel and Cody Ko are huge creators, but the hate has fizzled out. Whereas P&M have smaller creators constantly reacting to their things so I feel like they're more hated on a consistent basis. You can tell that's true because on this video that P&M posted they got way more hate than Bethany.
I am not trying to throw Paul and Morgan under the bus. BUT if you heard how they speak and act you would think they are in HS. The immaturity is next level and besides their VERY narrow views on things, it's the childlike immaturity that drives me up the wall.
Paul was told that he became a man at the age of 18 and never gave it a second thought. Never moved on from what a teenager hopped up on church dogma *thinks* a man is. He gets huffy when Morgan expresses how unsatisfying their sex life is. He gleams with a Gaston-like raised eyebrow every time he wants to pour of his own "wisdom". He is the embodiment of every moralising sports-bro I knew in high school. Come to think of it, maybe I've been a bit sensitive, too 😅
the way they were using “hater” as a synonym for “non-christian” is so frustrating 😭😭 there are plenty of christians who don’t like them and plenty of non-christians who have compassion for them
I am only about a fourth of the way through but I just want to say, Taylor/Antibot, you guys balancing your criticism with warmth, kindness, and compassion towards people like Girl Defined is beautiful, exemplary, and something so many other channels and people in general could learn from. Thank you so much!
Yes I agree with you so much. I have a lot to learn in this regard, I recently de-converted from Christianity and still have many Christian friends. Seeing this video was actually very informative for me, and I feel differently towards both Bethy and Kristen as well as Paul and Morgan. They remind me of my Christian friends, how they hold SOO many different views than me, but at the end of the day they’re human too, we can disagree and still love and care for each other.
I'd love to see it happen for real, on neutral ground. I don't think it'd necessarily work if they all tried to conference online, due to too much public persona incongruity.
The reason Paul can claim he sees more unity among fundamentalist groups is he can define fundamentalist in a way that confirms that belief. There are tons of differences between their philosophy and that of the Westboro Baptist Church, who are clearly fundamentalist in my view, but he can just say "Oh they're not fundamentalist". With that viewpoint, it's a meaningless statement. He's just saying "people who agree with me usually agree with me".
Yes! I was going to say something this. Him saying Christians agree on the fundamentals is easy because everyone who doesn't agree is not a Christian in his eyes. IBLP, Catholics, progressives, Mormons, some evangelicals, etc. who don't agree with his fundamentals are not Christians according to him.
Yep. 1. Define “fundamentals” as the beliefs you think would make someone NOT be a Christian if they didn’t believe them 2. Consider anyone who doesn’t adhere to these fundamentals to not be “real Christians” 3. Marvel at the fact that all the “real Christians” left agree on the fundamentals, even though they disagree on a lot of other stuff! Wow!
Dave seems to be maturing mentally and spiritually and Paul and Morgan seem to be acting like evangelical private highschool freshmen, rhetoric and attitude.
I’m only a few minutes in but when you guys were mentioning Dave and his progressive views, yes he definitely seems more progressive. There’s a video where he and Bethany were discussing the Barbie movie and Bethany heavily criticized the movie as “man-hating” (her typical spiel of “boo it’s feminist, it sucks, Ken was better blah blah). Dave however was super nuanced on it and found it fascinating and really enjoyed it and understood the messaging. You could tell it caused some tension between the two and it’s a fascinating video in case you guys wanna check it out.
I feel like she doesn’t deserve him 😭 in the way that openness and not being reactionary is a sign of intelligence and allows for more compassion (very conservative religious groups don’t promote this). I missed out on the drama that was about one of the GD relationships but their demeanor seems very fake. They’re selling that their Christian faith makes you happy, more righteous, and secure
Credit where its due, Bethy’s take on Dav being different from her and that being ok was insightful and nice to hear. I hope that has a good impact on their listeners
Dav is too smart for all these people. He uses vocabulary that I imagine his wife, Paul, and Morgan are totally ignorant of. He's discussing things like relativism, dogmatism, and such and I just wonder if Paul has any clue what that means. You should check out the video of Bethany and Dav doing a "review" of the Barbie movie to see the disparity between just Dave's intellectualism and Bethany's lack thereof.
It was very clear to me when Bethany was comparing herself with Dav and said that he has read the Bible multiple times (insinuating she hasn't) that he actually cares to thoroughly educate himself while she just parrots popular views and talking points in conservative Christianity. Bethany would know a lot more if she actually took the Bible's advice to study the Bible.
1:34:50 as a Deconstructor who is also Childfree by Choice, I am genuinely disgusted anyone could write how they hope her baby dies in her womb. Especially because she's struggled so much with infertility, and self-worth surrounding infertility (which we know is proportionate to evangelical culture.) To even wish such a horrible thing on another human being JUST because the Redditor disagrees with their viewpoint? Awful. I implore anyone comment-surfing to never become a bully against them as people. Critique their views, but do not stoop as low to do that.
Couldn't help but chuckle at Morgan's awkward response to Bethany in the car. I'd bet a million bucks her "your faith doesn't have to look exactly the same to have a happy marriage" answer made Morgan feel called out and uncomfortable. Maybe Morgan has never directly said "I have molded my beliefs to appease Paul" but that's precisely what has happened, they've been pretty up front about it in other ways. As much as I do appreciate Bethany's answers here, I can't help but wonder if she genuinely means what she's saying, or if it might be some level of a cover. Because you know darn well that yes, she may be open about their marriage to an extent, like yes you'll have disagreements and it's ok...but I highly doubt she'd admit to having doubts in Dave, or if marrying him was the right decision (aka potentially considering divorce). For some reason I have a really hard time seeing Bethany as a truly honest person.
As someone that was raised evangelical fundamentalist, I see Bethany like I’ve seen many girls that grew up in this anti-feminist culture. It’s usually about sounding and looking like the “biblical, faithful girl”. She often mentions moments that humanize her as a “normal person” but even in those moments you can hear/see that she is passing along rules or judgements she was taught by someone else she looked up to. When you ask these kinds of people to be original they often can’t be unique, out of fear of ridicule or ousting from the group that’s been ingrained in them for years. But they are ironically and endlessly trying to prove to themselves that they’re are unique and don’t need change or feminism, as reward for being the same person they’ve always been… “a sinner”. Even growing up you could tell that the adults knew how backwards that behavior was. But girls especially struggle to carve a path of freedom in organized religion, where it is typically considered heretical.
@@dreacopley7637, I agree. Nothing about Girl Defined implies originality. Their commentary feels like a prepackaged version of the conservative evangelical points they were raised on. Even Bethany’s videos about “self-nourishing” came from content she considered justifiable because it originated with a “Christian” woman.
@@queenmotherhane4374 agreed. Women should be encouraged to fix what they can in this world. We usually have a new way to view things, especially when it comes to intimacy and trust.
To me it screamed that she was simply repeating what she's heard Dav say! We've seen her speak loudly and confidently about topics that she clearly doesn't understand, usually just parroting an unoriginal take. Even in her sex courses, she's known to simply regurgitate material from the places she finds "inspiration". It's really easy to say words you don't understand or really mean, especially when you know they make you look good. And quite simply, the eloquence and thoughtfulness of what she was saying really seems much more like something coming from Dav's brain.
I think I’m personally much more fascinated by these two fundie channels is because they feel so approachable in a scary way. Like a “that could have been me” kind of way. Girls Gone Bible is kind of unapproachable, especially with at least one of them being an actress, and I find that many others are similarly distant. I quite easily could have married a Paul, and he terrifies me because of the snippets of manipulation we’ve seen. Even if he’s not full-blown abusive, he does demonstrate some behavior that scares me.
@@dodleymortune8422 again, not necessarily “abuse” yet, but certainly manipulative behavior. The biggest one is the clip where she mentions that she knew he wanted sex, but she kept her back turned because she was still mad at him over an argument. He acts very betrayed, then encourages her to think of his needs more. No matter how you twist it, it’s a bad look.
@@rachelhansen2417 And woman using their sexuality to gains things in relations is not manipulation ? I think we all use manipulation in some way, anytime you want something and try to convince or influence someone else to agree. But I would not use the word manipulation, because it has a negative connotation as it's a bad thing you do not have the right to do. If he felt a little betrayed by the admission of his wife, I think he can express it show it without it being a bad thing. That's my opinion.
@@dodleymortune8422 telling your wife to “humble herself” and have angry sex is absolutely dangerous manipulation. If you don’t think so, you need to seriously reeducate yourself on the concept of consent. And I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t use sex as a manipulation tool.
Girl Defined were so proud of how they didn't issue an apology for the harm they cause, because God forbid they display any humility, remorse or understanding of how their beliefs don't work for everyone.
Maybe it's changed since I stopped being a Christian, but I was taught that repentance and contrition were acts of the Christian faith. That when you realized you've done something wrong, you ask for forgiveness not just from God but from those you've wronged.
There isn't any disagreement about the fundamentals in Christianity because if the fundamentals don't match then the 'other' group isn't really Christian. Thought stopping tactic successful.
I wish people had a better understanding of deCONSTRUCTION vs deCONVERSION. What Bethy and Dav are doing is deconstruction. What I did was deconversion after deconstruction. I couldn't build back up.
I'm going to be honest: if you've deconstructed well then you've deconverted. There's no good understanding of Christianity that doesn't begin with understanding that 'Jews are too stupid and evil to not know their own god; the Greeks definitely know better' is a bad place for any religion to begin. You can't have substitutionary atonement without being unethical. Original sin is trash ideology. 'Modesty' is misogyny and rape culture. It just sucks all the way down.
I just say that I deconstructed completely. To me, deconversion implies an initial conversion, but I was steeped in it from birth, I never converted to Christianity. If anything, becoming an atheist was my first conversion and I'm not sure that's the right word either, with atheism not being a religion.
Yeah they seem to completely conflate the two and just assume deconstruction means leaving the faith. The way they talk about it very much reads that way.
Wow, massive respect to Dave at 57:53. It was a blink and you'll miss it moment, but I think it says a lot about him; let me explain. The LDS church has had a big push in the last few years to stop using the "Mormon" nickname and instead encourage people to use the church's actual name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When Dave corrected them, saying "LDS" instead of "Mormon", this is what he was doing - calling people what they want to be called, even if you do not align with them. I grew up Mormon, and while I have distanced myself from the religion, I very much believe in respecting all religions. This was incredible to see. A little less impressive was the way the rest of them deflected a stereotype towards them by instead pointing it at another faith group. You don't like how everyone assumes that you're rich, huh? So how do you think the Mormons feel about you doing the same thing to them? How do they say that in the same breath and not even see what's wrong with it? 😅
I felt that P&M's energy in this video was focused on sensationalising things that B&D said. They were unnecessarily rude and patronizing. Basically trying to trigger any reaction out of B&D, slyly waiting for them to spill the tea on their relationship and D's more progressive views.
Bethany talking about Dave and their kids sounds so loving and healthy, that's beautiful and I hope them all the best honestly. Dave sounds like such a kind and smart person based on this video
It really bothers me that Bethany expects us to care about her marriage when she discounts people's entire identities. And Paul is a fatphobic bully, I could definitely see him being mean to Morgan about her appearance. If not now than someday.
Agreed. And my main gripe is that she probably lumps people who call her disrespectful towards her husband in her videos (eye rolling, arguing in disrespectful ways, etc.), which is true, wirh people who are full out haters and want them to divorce because they want her to suffer.
As an ex-fundamentalist, I found this video extremely encouraging and refreshing. I heard about the Reddit sub-threads and I started reading there frequently. I was hoping for conversation with other people like myself and instead I found people viciously hating on influencers who are a lot like who I used to be. I wanted a place to discuss beliefs but instead it was just bullying. Any opposing beliefs were shut down as “leg-humping”. I’m glad to see there are people who can call out harmful beliefs while maintaining empathy.
It always baffles me how Paul and Morgan have full editing control and they always manage to seem the least kind/ most judgy. It takes a lot for me to be on Bethy’s side, but some of their takes were pretty disrespectful especially since they were coming into GD’s lives to film.
I really enjoyed your take on this, particularly in helping shift awareness of how we're hyper focused on P+M and Girl Defined, when there are much bigger channels with as dangerous theology (aka Girls Gone Bible). I had never even heard of Girls Gone Bible until your video. It also helps me understand how the purpose should be to analyze and refute, not nitpick and harass. This has been a really helpful reframing for me, and I appreciate your work!
I think ppl get so focused on P&M or GD maybe because they remind us of real ppl in our lives or childhoods...maybe I'm just speaking for myself. It hit me when I saw the antibots story on IG the other day. Much bigger fish to fry I agree 💯
It makes me happy to hear Bethy talk about her marriage in such a tempered and even way. I think that her relationship with Dav will definitely be good for them and their kids
Here’s the difference I see between Dav and Paul: Paul seems to cling to his prescribed idea of Christianity in order to maintain some sense of control over people. Which is why he seems incapable of engaging in intelligent conversation without the need to have a “gotchya” moment or to have the final word. I’m not calling him malicious, but I don’t think he argues in good faith. His mind is already made up. Dav on the other hand seems like someone who is genuinely seeking truth, and when you do that, you soon realize how little you actually understand, and in turn become a lot more compassionate and humble. Hence his ability to have difficult conversations without feeling threatened. He’s “open minded” if you will 👻 I struggle to see how Paul and Morgan think they will “lead” anyone to Christianity. They are quite patronizing at times. I wish they would see through some of the feedback from “haters” and become a bit more humble and compassionate.
I know this would never happen but i think it would be absolutely fascinating if they did the 24 hr thing w y’all. Like not a debate just… spending the day together
Hope you both are on the other side of the health issues! I’m loving these videos and how targeted the Bible study and Christian ads have been since I found yours and Drew’s channels. Must be doing something right 😂
@vidhead85 I'm a nevermo but still ex Christian and love Mormon stories. really helped me deconstruct my own beliefs without having to confront them directly and eventually deconvert
I have really enjoyed seeing the discussions around this! Dav seems like a pretty cool guy, and I like seeing his influence on Bethany. She seems like she’s calmed down a bit and that’s good. Did you see that Dav commented on Zelph on the Shelf’s video saying they should be friends? It’s adorable.
Paul and Morgan have such a judgmental tone to everything they say - it’s incredibly off putting. Morgan’s response to what Bethany said about her and Dav’s relationship and their evolving faith was just so rude. Not surprised, but damn.
I think the dinner conversation actually reflects a fascinating perspective on the parasocial relationship between influencers and followers from the influencer’s view.
Not to take away from the actual point of the video, but I'm about halfway through and I just want to thank you guys for calling out redditors. So much of fundie snark is nothing but bullying, and you are the only channel (that critiques these creators) who has pointed that out. As a more progressive Christian myself, this is why I respect you both so much. You always have the most kind and balanced commentary. Thank you ❤️
Glad to see Bethany and Dave having a pretty healthy relationship, and his influence on her seems very respectful and wholesome on both ends. And I'm glad they're in a Lutheran Church, I think that's a good balance. I grew up in Minnesota Lutheran churches so it may be more conservative where they are. I don't believe in Christianity anymore, but the church was actually one of the safer places in my life, given physical abuse at home. At least the Lutheran church I grew up in was a fairly safe and supportive place to be a kid. I think it should be a place that can support Bethany's craving for a strong Christian community, and also Dave's desire to think about and question things. Also even though Bethany will probably never see this, I hope this comment is one drop in the bucket of people who do wish her well and are fine with her being Christian. I just want her to be less harmful to people she doesn't understand.
I grew up in MN Lutheran churches as well. My family went from ELCA to LCMS because the ELCA wasn’t hard enough on the gay issue in the 90’s. What synod were you part of?
@@nicklj2480 To be honest I stopped believing a very long time ago so I don't remember which is which! My father wanted to split off with the more homophobic members of the congregation, but the pastor and the woman who led a lot of the youth events were staying, so she convinced him to stay in the more accepting church to avoid uprooting the kids. Funny thing is that my mom is also an atheist now and has said that she always kind of went through the motions with church. I'm glad she kept us in that congregation though, we lived in a very conservative part of the state and I am nonbinary and was closeted the entire time. I'm very lucky that, while I felt a lot of religious condemnation, it wasn't actually coming from *my* church. I left because it just never seemed true and therefore wasn't important for me. I've always wondered just how much the more conservative side of the split wound up though! If you're still reading the comments, how was your experience?
Honestly I would really love for Dave to be interviewed by Taylor and Drew. I think they would be the *best* atheists having come from the same background of religious fundamentalism, thus can be diplomatic and compassionate without compromising on boundaries. It's why as someone religious myself, I love their content, it's refreshing to hear from atheists who don't default to Reddit-and-Twitter flame wars that always come my way just for saying "I'm a Christian"
With all due respect, Paul and Morgan deserve to be called out as much as they are. They have some very harmful and hateful views that need to be pushed back on. While I do agree with you that we don’t know Paul and Morgan personally, the accusations about Paul being emotionally abusive towards Morgan are warranted. I don’t think it’s something people are making up because they don’t like them, it’s because Paul has openly talked about it. He coerces her into sex, he’s made Morgan come off of her meds for her mental illness, and thinks therapy is more harmful than it is helpful. I think they’re talked about negatively because of how harmful their views are and they accuse anyone that believes differently than them as not being a real Christian. Neither one of them are willing to look inward and rethink their harmful beliefs, instead they double down.
46:40 I actually think that Bethany not extending that to other people is a crucial step, because she is making a space for herself and Dave to question and grow, but within the boundaries that feel okay for them right now. Even though, as you pointed out, they are beyond some of the boundaries they would have previously thought were okay, the gradualness of it allows it to feel safe in a way. If she extends the same compassion to others, then she would probably start to realize she is similar to them and possibly double down on her beliefs because now she’s in the “danger zone” based on what she was taught. Looking back, I realized that I was doing this slowly over a period of 4 years in my own deconstruction journey without even realizing, because I would constantly add the caveat for myself “it’s not like I’m not believing in god anymore” or “it’s not like I’m turning my back on the one true organization”, just like Bethany said here (“it’s not like we’re leaving the faith.”) I was raised as a Jehovahs Witness and am now an agnostic atheist, and the only way I was able to wake up and realize that JWs were a doomsday cult, was through a very gradual and slow process of deconstructing (not knowing that word!) small pieces here and there. I love your videos and they are so helpful as I am still on my deconstruction journey and healing my religious trauma. Thank you for your thoughtful insights. I love the way you both speak to each other and share your thoughts, and your videos always make me feel safe and calm, even when you are discussing very triggering things. ❤❤❤
I really appreciate you guys bringing up how Jimmy Snow and Jaclyn Glen talked about Paul and Morgan. I didn't make the connection that that was what Bethany and Dav were probably talking about, but I remember those videos. I was really young when I stopped watching both of them, and I didn't even realize at the time how dangerous the videos they were putting out about Morgan could have been for her if she really had been in danger. But the thing that finally made me unsubscribe to Jaclyn Glenn was actually a livestream she did where she and her husband watched Bethany and Dav's livestream announcing their engagement she just kept saying over and over again that Dav was definitely secretly gay and dropping hints about it and speculating that he'd been forced to go to conversion therapy. Like there was a part in particular where Bethany asked him if the camera looked straight and he said something like "define straight" in a joking tone and Jaclyn was like "look, see, he's obviously gay!" and it just grossed me out so much. Speculating about people's sexualities is just so gross, especially when a person is choosing not to say anything despite people asking publicly. I didn't want to see anything else after that.
Same, I unsubscribed from Jimmy after the Rachel Oats controversy and I’m glad I did. I like Taylor and Drew’s content and way of talking about people like P&M, GD etc. so much more respectful, interesting and helpful
"This is how the Lord has grown us" Sorry but all I hear is "We don't have to acknowledge any harm we might have caused others because this is our personal journey with God"
At the risk of sounding like some of the people who are unfair to Bethany and Paul, the dinner conversation felt like a little bit of a gang up on Dave there for a bit.
Leave it to conservatives to think feminist is the opposite of conservative Christian. I don't know when the definition of feminist became "atheist who fully aligns with Democratic politics and hates people who disagree with them" but we need to get away from that. It literally just means you think everyone deserves equal rights. I would argue you don't even have to agree with equality in your own life as long as you support it for others and legally. (ex. you think traditional gender roles create the best outcomes in your household, but you fully support women and men having equal opportunity to not adhere to those roles outside of your home) Dave is probably secretly a feminist by the true definition.
I think Paul and Morgan are lying to themselves and when they encounter people who are living honestly it makes them uncomfortable and then you get the passive aggressive backhanded comments and weird uncomfortable giggles
hah! I laughed at her calling out infant baptism as one of the "crazy" things because I have gone to churches that required you to get rebaptized as an adult if you were baptized as an infant. Now I attend a Lutheran church! It really is very different.
This is a great video. I didn't realize that P+M and Girl Defined were as small as they are. I've seen so many channels react to them, I guess I assumed they were more influential than they were.
Dav spitting absolute BARS at the dinner table at the other three about their "Us versus Them" mentality (along with his humorous quip about "King energy") really solidified my stance as a Dav stan. PREACH SIR PREACH!
@@dollinterrupted I'm a Christian, I don't believe that. It was what Biblical Womanhood theologians taught me and I completely disagree, now that I'm deconstructing. The story of Adam and Eve is a good marker for the concept of the first humans.... Creation or evolution, at some point, two things had sex to make babies.... But it doesn't mean we all have to follow life as if *we're* Adam and Eve. For instance, I'm Childfree by Choice :P I have no inclination to be fruitful and multiply.
Thank you for being thoughtful and empathetic. I didn't know about other creators accusing Paul of abuse like that. I've been in an abusive relationship, and people being flippant about it for drama is deeply upsetting. Thank you again for using empathy and not losing sight of the humanity of others, while still pointing out the harmful things they promote
Girl Defined's 2 employees are their younger sisters. So they're probably not paying them top dollar like you would to an editor with education and experience. Also, that means that listening to their employees views on the content that Kristen and Bethany produce doesn't really hold that much water.
I just saw that Bethany and Her Husband made a video reacting to the Paul and Morgan video and in it she says she is not against deconstruction and she is also deconstructing parts of her faith. You guys should react to that video, aswell.
I admire both of y'all so much. No one else is as willing as y'all to give anyone else the benefit of the doubt or look to understand the heart of the issue.
Super thoughtful perspective, you two! Thank you for continually checking the knee jerk reactions to instead dig a bit more at the issues and frustrations. That takes real WORK! So thank you. It gave me a few things to chew on, as always!!
12:31 from the little bit I’ve seen of both Paul & Morgan, I think Drew’s comment here is absolutely on point: both P&M are intellectual lightweights. Or even whatever the weight class below lightweights is.
You both approach every topic with such respect, empathy and confidence. I love you both so much. Please don't ever leave us. 😊 I walked away from my faith 26 years ago and I'll never be able to believe in the God of the Bible simply out of my love for humanity, and part of that love is for evangelicals. They are people who find great comfort in their beliefs. I think lovingly we can help remove their blinders, and cleanse their system of the coolaid. Bullying is never ever the way to do this. It actually does the opposite. Keep being kind and speaking the truth you guys. As someone old enough to be your mother, I want you to know, I'm really really proud of the people you've become.
Dav’s moment of talking about how external criticism from the “haters” can help you see flaws in yourself that you wouldn’t recognize otherwise had a level of insight that I basically just don’t expect from the Christian community. Major props. But I was even more surprised by Bethany talking about respecting Dav’s differences and accidentally describing deconstruction. I couldn’t care less about her leaving fundamentalism, but it gives me hope that she can continue to grow as a person. …conversely, Paul and Morgan’s respective responses to each of these moments were exactly as condescending and dismissive as I’d expect.
I also loved this video and love that you guys covered it. I feel like you guys hit basically all the points I thought about as I watched. Gosh, though, Paul really does come across as very interrogative at times. Honestly both Paul and Morgan seemed like that to me. It didn't come across as an interview at times, sometimes it came across as an interrogation of their beliefs and also maybe a way of being like, "Don't you think you're straying a bit too far? Don't you think maybe you should reel it in a little bit?" But then, even at the dinner table when Paul asked if Morgan ever felt the way Dave did about comments regarding their relationship - she began to laugh it off and he cut off her laugh with, "No let's be real," followed by a very specific example of a shitty comment and the image of him just sitting with his arms crossed and all eyes on her - it felt like I could feel the weight of the tension in the room. And THEN followed by, "Please say no." Like, I do understand that feeling and also understand it seemed fairly lighthearted when he said it, but Dave did get an actual opportunity to say how he felt. Morgan kind of didn't get that opportunity in the same way. Sometimes it really comes across like it's the first time they're discussing some of these topics, or at the very least, that those wounds are still a little raw. And with that, I think it makes Paul's approach seem underhanded and a bit manipulative. Not to say he's an entirely bad person, I just don't vibe with those aspects personally. It very much reminds me of the type of language, and also the type of approach, I have known particularly shitty (abusive) people to use on a regular basis to get to you believe and live by their specific beliefs and not allow you your own thoughts or experiences. ONCE AGAIN, not saying he is one of those people. Just that this particular behavior is crappy, in my opinion.
I agree that compassion is needed in this situation, but actively asking ppl not to give views to Paul and Morgan and Girl Defined is kind of justified in my opinion. Many of their views are actively harmful to many groups and spread misinformation about sex, health, and relationships. I don't think you should make money advocating for purity culture or submissive relationships when that can actively cause harm to your audience. It seemed they were more concerned about doom wishers that chased money away than actual hate.
That was honestly refreshing, not only from them but from you guys, I sometimes fall down the rabbit hole of watching content I don't agree with getting mocked, and feel that nice validation and vindication, it is so important to hear the perspective of the people I don't agree with and remind myself they are people, it's certainly harder but much more important than just keep being told I'm so smart for feeling like I already felt
You’re missing one thing. Evangelical Christians believe they are at their most biblical, most holy, when the world hates them. It’s validating as a twisting of scripture. And they are not teachable outside their own circle of who they seem “true believers “. The echo chamber is what breeds such narrow, closed thinking.
Not exactly or necessary that you are the most holy if the world hates you( the Bible speak about being hated for wrong reasons by the world also), but yes the Bible does say that if you follow Jesus and his teachings the best possible you will definitely get hate from the world. You can also get love, when they "see your good conduct and praise your father in heaven". But of course to think that walking right with Jesus will get you hate is true.... you can not act as if that's à false belief. Simple example, the Bible says Homosexuality is wrong. Most in the secular world think it's okay. If they ask me what I think about it and I say exactly what the Bible say, will I not get hate for it ? Of course I will so this belief is true.
1:25:00 To be fair to Jaclyn, if I recall correctly from that video she mostly talked about the dramatic switch that Morgan made in terms of interest (ie her singing career and how her style changed when meeting Paul). Since then, she has made videos with Paul and Morgan so I think there was probably something to what she was saying if they are all friends now.
Yeah, I found Jimmy Snow's video to be condescending and in poor taste. Jaclyn's video, while still really flawed, was at least trying to come from a place of empathy
@@emmyrose233 I haven't seen Jimmy's video but i do feel like he tends to unnecessarily pile on to things people are addressing. I do agree with your assessment of Jaclyn's video though, I don't think she needed to make it but i don't think it was ill-intended either.
I think they both regret those videos, Jimmy at the time really was just doing anything to grow his channel. I think other creators are still guilty of it. I don't mind Rachel Oats' videos, but when she talks about P&M she always goes on of how they have no chemistry and seem to hate each other, which... fine if that's what you think... but really keep it to yourself
If you were ever approached by Paul and Morgan, do you think you and Drew would do a “24 hrs with” for their channel? Would you have any stipulations? Do you think having people with your perspective on their channel would change any hearts and minds?
I'm so excited to see this. haha. Y'all are some of my favorite, and remind me of one of my best friends and I. We did missions together, and no longer are involved and aren't part of the faith any longer. She's a lot like you, and I'm alot like your husband. haha
My question is: do these couples talk to each other when they're alone? There seemed to be a lot of conversation at the dinner table that should have been discussed in private amongst the husband and wife that is just being splayed across the Internet now.
I’m so proud of the progress Bethany is doing omg. Some of the things she says do make me go “uuuuuuuuh that’s not really right😭” but overall she’s making some really nice change!! I’m so glad she has Dave to help her ^^ hopefully as more time passes, she’ll deconstruct a lot more.
The thing is that people on the other "side" shouldn't expect to agree with her on everything. Like if she's at point A, I'm at point M or something. She isn't going to leap from A to M in a few years, and if I (or others who allegedly want her to grow) were to just dismiss any growth that she's doing because she said something I disagreed with, that's gonna push her back towards A. Not that you're doing that but yeah the "Bethany noooo" feeling should be expected still
@@ImSoTired-ws6ee I know all of that😭😭I was just leaving a comment without much context. It was just a quick thought. But yeah I’m aware that change doesn’t just happen over night, especially when this is what you’ve been taught your entire life. I come from the same place as Bethany so I know 😅
@@leebubbles oh yeah no I know! That's why I said "not that you're doing that" in my original comment. Was just using your comment to build off of that thought, and express some of my confusion about other people who are shocked that she's not "perfect" all of a sudden ☺️
The one thing I do find quite hurtful in a lot of P&M Skeptic commentary is how often people will comment about how Morgan is "on drugs" or "drunk", just because she's a bit of a bubblehead-girly persona. I've copped that a LOT myself because I'm one of those 'like, oh wow, totally' girls. I can sound pretty ditzy at times, I overshare and overtalk, trail off the way she does. This is simply my natural persona, 100% persona, and it's pretty unfair people automatically assume someone is inebriated just by being themselves. Of all the things to criticise P&M over, and we can discuss their harmful rhetoric until we're blue in the face... Being mean about her presentation and gender-expression as a woman is pretty uncalled for. I don't think grown women have to pretend to be something we're not if we're simply being who we are, if it makes the status quo uncomfortable. She's not drunk, she's not high, she's just a bit of a baublehead girlygirl and yknow what? That's FINE.
I completely agree with you. I hate when people say that about Morgan. I’ve never understood why people say that because I’ve always took it as that’s just her personality. It definitely feels like people are policing a woman’s personality and how she “should” present herself.
Morgan literally can't fathom how you could ever share with your kids more than one answer when they have questions! It's so simple. "Here's what I think, (insert answer here). Your dad/mom has a different perspective, so you should ask him/her/them this question too. You might agree with one of us more than the other, or maybe you'll think of an answer somewhere in the middle." Partners with different/opposing views can still parent effectively.
Bethany and Dav’s follow up yesterday was super interesting and even more unexpected. It seems like Bethany has learned a lot about deconstructing in the week since, or maybe was just very careful with her words around Paul and Morgan.
yaaaaa boi, loved it guys! on a serious note.. i really like the way you guys put things into perspective, really productive way to speak and address the issues.
I’m pretty sure the people that work for girl defined are their own relatives (I saw somewhere that one is their own sister) so I don’t think they’re paying anyone from the outside.
I wonder what they'd say if Dave further deconstructed to be very progressive or deconverted altogether. The way she defended him tooth and nail to say he's still a very strong Christian and he's read the Bible through many times wouldn't look very good for their "If you deconvert then you never were a real Christian" rhetoric. Edit: Just watched their response video reflecting on the time with Paul and Morgan and it seems like he actually has completely deconstructed. They're not very explicit about it but it sounds like he doesn't believe much at all, but supports his wife and kids in still learning about God and practicing religion. It's weird because she made a comment in this video about how they're not as far away from conservative Christianity as people may think but then they just came out with a video that makes it sound like he's not religious at all anymore. Maybe she's just talking about herself? Or maybe things have developed further since this was filmed.
Maybe it's just me, but these Christian couples are just like the couples my ex-wife and I used to hang out with in our church community. Heavy undertones of passive-aggressive competition, combined with heavy doses of cognitive dissonance confirmation. Today I don't think I could be in the same room with them for very long.
You guys are spot on with your reasoning for why people are so fascinated by them. I’ve done a lot of deconstruction, and it’s so frustrating to see mega church pastor preaching the exact same things girl defined is saying and receiving zero criticism.
I LOVE y’all’s content; it’s so nuanced and refreshing. Especially your take on reaction content to Girl Defined. I appreciate that, thank you for gently questioning my small views!
