People say it happens to the best of us until it actually happens to someone, then they get hard-flamed by the FGC for being bad because they should have simply been better at blind guessing coinflips.
I've always wondered about this happening. The punishment for trying to tech a throw and getting baited is so great, that lots of players will just kind of say "don't tech" and eventually someone is going to take advantage of that and just throw you to death
@@Sharkofspace throws return you to neutral, which gives you a chance to get in and take advantage, while getting combo'd after a punish counter will mostly give your opponent the advantage.
@@chsi5420Throws absolutely do not return you to neutral. They put you into a series of indefinite mixups in this game. Most characters throws leave you point blank and plus, so you're essentially either getting shimmied for a LOT of damage or thrown again until you guess correctly. It's poop in my opinion
@@Xelious Yeah but then you have to live with the fact that you lost to 30 throws in a row. Eating a 70% punish counter combo is just what happens in the game, but getting thrown to death is just pathetic.
it’s easy to look at one clip where someone gets thrown a bunch of times in a row and ignore the thousands of times that doesn’t happen. same thing with parries.
Max got me with the "We've played together a lot, and he's NEVER thrown me this many times before" It's all uncharted waters at that point, and you're spooked.
That comment about the crowd going crazy at Evo is absolutely true. This would've had articles written about it and be replayed in every Evo compilation during the breaks or stuff.
I've said this many times, but at high-level, doing the same thing, over and over again, is honestly a really good strategy every once in a while. Your opponent is almost always gonna think for one reason or another, "He's not gonna do it again" so when you do, it surprisingly works. It's the no-mixup mixup.
I think a lot of people that say it’s just pure luck need to understand that people aren’t computers. You can get in their head and discover patterns and sometimes even manipulate those patterns. No one is truly random.
That happens when a friend of mine and I play together. We mix each other by doing the same thing over and over. It's extremely effective when you know the other player lmao
The damage a legend Ken could do when he shimmys the amnesia/ throw tech is equal to the damage he would get with 2-4 throws, and then after he combos you he just has the same oki again. Plus from the outside it's hard to see how these two are in eachother's heads
The most telling thing to me was when JP finally gets to stand up, we see he is parrying. He isn't worried about the throws, he is worried about eating a combo, even though he has already sucked 6 throws. It is honestly incredible, in the wrong way.
4:18 For me, a worse problem is visually seeing exactly WHEN my character is considered no longer invincible after wake-up. It's screwed with my reversal timings so much ever since the game launched.
I had a huge issue with this, and I actually stopped watching Brian_F entirely because he had a "tips" video where someone mentioned it as an issue and his response was to be a smug asshole and say "uhm, get better at inputs maybe? I don't know what to tell you." The actual advice there would be that it's just a really weird timing that feels very different character to character, but GENERALLY on wake-up it's the point like a frame or two immediately after the character plants their feet flat on the ground while still getting up. Once I realized this I started having no issue with wake-up supers but some characters like Ryu still have weirdly timed animations that throw me off.
@@librarygary1618 huh this is really interesting to me. I haven't had this issue before but I can see how newer players can with these versions of SF since the animations are much more complex. The most important thing to remember is that your wake up timing is dependent on the move your opponent did to knock you down, not your character or their animation. That's why some og players might say things like just learn the timing, but I can see how it feels like some characters take longer "to get on their feet" just from the animation.
@@librarygary1618 Wouldn't the input buffer allow the timing to be a lot more lenient? I don't play SF6 specifically, but I'm a scrub in many other games and wake up dp has never troubled me, I'm curious
I play Dhalsim, so I've been on the receiving end of plenty of throw loops. I usually feel like my opponent is just taking advantage of my characters few viable wake up options. ESSPECIALLY AGAINST CAMMY, sometimes taking the throw is my best option.
Taking the throw when you do have anti throw options is still the best option. Shimmy beats both throw tech and anti throw options. Throw loops are far too rewarding, the damage isn't so great sure, but the ability to threaten another throw when the punishment for trying to get out of a throw is so great is so much reward.
I also play Dhalsim. Dhalsim gets wrecked by most of the cast because he has no viable way to get out of the pressure, especially when he gets in the corner, which half the cast has great corner carry.
Mental Stack and Heat of the Moment cannot be understated. Almost every throw there was different too. It was so fucking beautiful. When you slow it down and watch the chess game going on it’s so fucking interesting. This clip isn’t just hilarious, it’s a love letter to fighting games and the greatest level of mind games. Every possible way to get thrown 😂 I can’t get over how beautiful this shit is. This should’ve been an EVO moment 😭
Also, one thing that I ALWAYS find unbelievable while watching Justin play any game is that he finds a character with a good down light kick and he almost every time gets a combo started from just 3 of those kick. He literally won UMVC3 EVO out of that. And i cant believe how that works.
His defense is always on point, his movement is really solid and efficient and he seems to rarely mess up or drop, probably because he likes to use the safer combos when possible. And his patience is literally legendary. He is a living legend which is pretty cool IMO.
The idea of fighting games becoming RPS is so accurate and it almost becomes crazier when so many mechanics get involved. It goes from RPS to adding another letter with each new mechanic. I've always been the best at fighting games in my friend group and they always wonder why sometimes they'll win a couple rounds then start losing. It's because I know they've adapted to my playstyle and if I make adjustments then they won't be able to adapt quick enough. I've made many come backs by literally doing what max says and just being as random as possible. The moment you get into someone's head and disrupt their momentum then moments like this throw loop or that ken only winning with shoryuken happen. It's absolutely wild how intricately you can have not just a physical fight but a mental one too.
except sf6 isn't even RPS. as long as the person on defense has drive meter, every mixup is a 50/50 strike/throw, because parry beats anything thats not throw.
You clearly dont understand everything at play when it comes to taking the throw. We have a player of the highest caliber here opting to rather choosing to taking the throw as its the safer option.
@jorgeaugusto6076 JP has an invincible reversal that beats strike/throw. There's only a 33% chance you're gonna guess wrong, but Kakeru insisted on holding down back.
The problem is not every character has a decent reversal or way to get out of pressure, namely the characters on the lower end of the tier list. You put characters like Dhalsim, Lily, Zangief, or any character without an invincible reversal in that situation & they're screwed & often times have to eat the throw. Yes, Lily's is invincible to throws, but you still have to guess whether or not it would be an actual throw & if it's not, you're taking a lot of damage.
I think that trade off for Lily's on purpose, if you take the guess out you just have a better option for many situations with no downsides. She could still have something else to counter because I feel she's a bit lacking on that department but I like that you don't have a set answer. But yeah, not having an invincible reversal in this game is ROUGH AF.
A reversal isn't a get-out-of-jail free card. Using an invincible reversal here and being wrong leads to massive damage and still being in the exact same oki situation. JP has an invincible reversal, he didn't use it because he thought it was too risky as a response. DP adds lizard and Spock to the RPS game, it's not a golden snitch.
This is a hilarious but enlightening look into the decision making that can lead to disaster. A big part of it is just "there is no way he throws 5/6/7/8 times in a row instead of going for at least one big damage shimmy".
Max, that breakdown of a competitive players brain in mid battle possibly going into panic mode is the exact reason why you're the fighting game streamer of the year. Amazing POV.
The problem with throw loops is that unless you have an invincible reversal you have the same options you’ve always had which are tech, backdash, or jump. Which all result in an exploding health bar if you’re wrong. Your other options in case of a strike are all of your drive options and blocking which get blown out by throw. So at the end of the day throw loops are relatively safe, effective, and very easy for the attacker but the defender has only risks (which I get you’re at a disadvantage that’s the point but still it doesn’t need to be thaaaat easy to “guess” someone to death)
@@soggytoast111 yeah for sure but with an invincible wake-up you the person getting looped has your own threat tool on wake-up that causes the attacker to have to guess no matter how bad your situation is
Personally I think the bigger problem is how easily you can corner carry (or be carried) someone at least with some characters. You do one mistake and Ken for example can carry you across the screen without even using any meter. After that you are instantly at a disadvantage and depending on the character it can be a pain to escape. You can get into a situation that you have to guess almost from the start of a round. Of course this was always a goal in SF but still, it took a bit of effort to corner carry someone.
Not just being put in the corner Ken has so many options to make you guess sometimes it feels like you should take the throw all the time. Being put into a flowchart against Ken is pretty scary.
I think what Phenom goes for here is just a simple, perfectly fine, rock solid anti-meta offensive strategy. I think the problem with throw loops isn't that it's too good, it's that it's so anti-meta the point where just because its less "rewarding", people don't even think to account for it despite the fact that it's capable of getting the job done just as well
They were way more scary at the beginning of sf6. Anyone being able to lock you into an unblockable genjutsu week one would definitely cause you to rage 😂
When you face this situation you ask yourself "Should I risk myself to whiff a Throw Escape to be punish countered or I should just block and receive that 10'% damage ? " And most of the time I just take that 10% damage.
trow loop is usually 3 to 5 times, thas like 30% - 50% wich is super high damage for a gamblig game... i mean fighting... its a fighting game... i think...
Yeah but that's also punishable if they hit a button. Again, JP has OD amnesia, its not a question of what he could have done to get out, but why he decided not to.
It’s the jiujitsu effect. In ufc, or any mma promotion, causal watchers and fans are going to want stand up, straight brawls and crazy knockouts. When it goes to the ground and slows down, and people are working, they tend to lose interest. Or think it’s boring, or think nothing is happening. When in reality there is a huge game of physical chess being played, and each movement either counts for you or against you. That’s what high level competition is like in anything. The smaller details and awareness matter the most
Honestly I feel like this clip gets alot of heat too is because Ken is in it. Lol I guarantee a majority of ppl first saw Ken and was already upset, then seeing him throw loop perfect someone added fuel to the fire
Honestly, anyone complaining about this clip doesn't know who Kakeru, the Parry God is. This is 100% a player matchup call and 100% a message to Kakeru.
Phenom did this same thing against Daigo in a sfv tournament (Necalli (Phenom) vs Guile (Daigo)) albeit with command grabs. It's just street fighter. Edit: Daigo had Ryu, not Guile...my bad
Max needs to try playing Kimberly or Lily with their slow lv 1's and no invincible DP against this stuff. It's really rough when you can't present a reliable wakeup reversal to slow people's offence down. Throw loops might be okay for some characters but Ken 100% doesn't need it. He already has incredible pressure overloading your mental stack, It should be done on a character by character basis.
To be fair, max DID start with Kimberly as a secondary before Marisa showed up, and he did struggle in green ranks before he got over that rank and played more his level. Lily he just flat out did not touch at any point. Hits his "too Moe for me" threshold for him to give her a chance.
@@janematthews9087 Max played Kimberly in the beta when her DP was still invincible I haven't seen him play her since. The only real struggle character he's used since the game launched was A.K.I. Lily's character archetype never vibes with Max it is what it is, I find edgy characters cringe and try hard we all have our tastes. I prefer extrovert personalities in my characters.
i think you're still missing the point that it doesnt matter how many options you have against throws. JP has plenty, still got thrown 10 times, because "just taking the throw" is less scary than getting shimmied and hit with a 60, 70% damage combo in return in mid level a invincible reversal does a lot for you bc people will go for the meaty, in diamond and above you'll find they'll bait the reversal out and punish you more often than not because reversals are still unsafe (and hence why the jp in the clip wasnt doing them even though he had the option to)
Listen guys…I understand guessing and playing rock paper scissors has always been a part of fighting games, but this is ridiculous. And especially when you add how easy it is for certain characters to carry you to the corner. You have to worry about drive rush which can be a jab or grab, a normal grab and throw looping, drive impact which even if you block you will hit the wall if you’re too close, a special into super, etc. I feel like capcom through a lot at the wall to see what sticks instead of actually focusing on one or two main mechanics. I can go on but this comment is already long enough. Not bashing the game btw, just giving my opinion.
The clip that you showed is not a problem. As the defender you have so many options. Back dash, jump forward, invincible reversal, he could've pressed a fast low to call out a shimmy, or throw tech.
It kinda reminds me of when you're grinding ranked in a game, like you're hardcore on that competitive mindset and you're trying to win. you've spent hours memorising frame data, optimising your combos then your friend that's a total beginner asks you to play and they beat the snot out of you "how did they beat me? I'm so much better than them!" well nobody expects a random DP in neutral nobody expects their opponent to start mashing buttons playing weird and erratic like a beginner can sometimes be a legitimate strategy because you're looking for those patterns, you're so used to specific situations and this kind of playstyle throws all of that out the window; it makes unpredictable and dangerous
Moment 37 is insane and is responsible for my intrigue in what would become the FGC. Saying that, the JW comeback with Cyc is just as intense and just is a monument in itself
A way to deal with this is to look at visual cues, for example in this footage of Kakeru getting smashed by throws you can see for I think for about 2 frames that Ken grabs his arm before the animation begins so I have learned that when you see that tech. It took me an hour in the lab to get good at teching throws so if you are in the corner or are just getting rushed down then look for the key tell before you do anything else. Ps: I think it is different with every character but if you see them grabbing you then tech them and there you go you’re playing neutral again. Hope this helps.
I'm notorious among my friend group for being the guy that "Just might do it again." It's actually the ultimate mind game. What is the last thing someone who has just been hit by 4 overheads in a row would expect? another overhead. It's too obvious, it's working too well, he'd obviously mix it up right? Maybe. Maybe not. It's funny either way. and that's why it works.
I think there also two things alot of players forget when they just watch a clip where a pro player plays "bad". A) Fighting Games are as much about technique as they are about mind games (justing wongs playstyle is a great example here) and B) pro players are just humans and can make mistakes like you and me, and mindgames can directly influence the mistake behaviour of your opponent and make him do things he usually wouldnt do in that situation
Dude throw loops have happened for decades. Its even got a name - "getting dunked on". Its all a mind game. Thats a completely valid strategy. Max is right, ppl would have been going nuts at evo for that because of how rare and strategic it is. People almost NEVER do this because its not effective aside from ultra rare cases. Anything would reversal that, but he got inside of Kakeru's head "Surely he wont try to throw me again, hes baiting me" but that one in 1000 chance of him getting the right call over and over (and that call is a throw every time as it turns out) is ridiculously rare and ineffective in almost every case. Thats why its so crazy to see it. There is nothing wrong with the strat in this clip, nothing needs to be fixed.
there was a play i ALWAYS fell for when playing a friend, he would get urien(SFV), and every. single. time. on round 2 he would use urien's shoulder bump-dash-thing and instant CA me if he had it, and i fell for it every time thinking ''he wont do that again'', then i started the habit of defending every time the second round started and he had CA, but then he got the habit of dashing twice and throwing me, i felt so frustrated in a funny way on how easy i was(still am) to read that he can get away with a lot of builshit bc i thought ''no way he is going to do it again''
The more impressive part is Phenom's bare-faced cheek to go for throw so many times. I think this is where the psychology of knowing they were both elite players worked against Kakeru. The whole time, he must have been thinking "there's no way he'll do it AGAIN, he must be setting me up to punish when I whiff a throw tech".
From a Spectator POV, Throw loops are incredibly problematic IMO. Its boring AF watching someone do the same move over and over again. Its the same single throw animation repeated, Its not exciting. Throw loops are only entertaining to the competitive audience who understands the nuance you explained in this video.
The thing I don’t like about throws in sf6 is you can’t jab check them. Any time I KNOW a throw is coming I crouch light punch, yet it beats that out. Meaning you only have EX or tech to avoid throws. In sf5 you could jab from throws. I dont know I guess it’s a change they want but I would prefer if jabs beat grabs
@@KusanagiMotoko100 yeah I guess, but it’s so burnt into my brain and muscle memory cuz like. Every other fighter has them (like the dude above u mentioned) i dont know. It’s odd it doesn’t work here
Actually it's the opposite. In SFV throws beat strikes. In sf6 strikes beat throws. In SFV if you were in a strike/throw mix, meaning you're -2 with your fastest normal being a 3 frame, and you chose to strike you would lose and get thrown. If your -1 in 6 with your fastest normal being a 4 frame attack, and your opponent tries to throw you and you strike the 4 frame strike will win.
I'm gonna say this. I haven't played against Justin but i know he and many other pros out there like to sandbag a lot of their rounds and it's nice because it extends the gameplay but they are just downloading you. And if you haven't downloaded them first or aren't good or fast enough at it, it's over. Justin will admit when he is actually sweating so it ain't too hard to tell. I'm not saying that's always the case. Justin does have clutch. He's definitely one of the smartest fighting game players ever.
Despite never fighting him, I've experienced a kinda pseudo Wong Factor. There are sometimes when you're ahead and you just feel like something is wrong. Like it somehow makes you lose confidence in your abilities. But you still want to end things quick. So you're kinda both cocky and scared shitless. This is vastly different from when you're ahead and you KNOW you're going to win. Granted, if I knew I was playing against Justin Wong then I know I would be nervous as fuck.
Kakeru has plenty of Drive gauge so he could try OD Amnesia after the 2nd throw since usually a lot of Ken players gonna go with a 3rd throw or a jab after the 2nd throw. Heck, if Kakeru eat the 3rd throw then he can just try to throw tech the 4th throw, a neutral jump, or go with wake up Super 1 to break free from the throw loop. Btw, Capcom removed throw loops from SF V because every characters has plus on block normals and the game was lacking defensive options until they added V-shift at season 4. It's a very different case for SF VI.
Well that ignores the whole reason why Kakeru didn't do it. He thought that if he tried OD Amnesia, it would get baited simply because throw had been represented so many time. Eating a throw removes %10, meanwhile having a throw tech or Amnesia baited means you lose about 60%. Everyone knows how to stop throw loops, but there's a huge risk in even attempting to do it so often times a lot of players just wait until the other player tries to shimmy or do anything else.
@@servebotfrank4082 Losing 60% of what, his health? Lol no, Kakeru not gonna lost 60% of health if his Amnesia got baited. Watch it again. Phenom only has 2 and 1/2 Drive gauge but without any Super after the first throw. Meanwhile Kakeru still have plenty of health and Drive gauge. The best combo Ken can do with 2 and 1/2 Drive gauge will be around 2000/2500 damage or around 25% if Phenom wants to spend all his Drive gauge and get burnout. And sure there's a huge risk similar if you decided to wake up with a DP / Super in the corner. But there's also a huge chance the opponent will eat that DP / Super and you break free from throw loop and get out of the corner. Hence the 50-50. It's best to do something rather than do nothing and take the throw over and over until you got KO.
...did people forget the concept of Yomi? Like seriously, fighting game isn't an if=when type of game, there are layers to it, even a Rock Paper Scissors has three layers to that.
Sajam has a good video that explains throw loops and why they exist in SF6. Basically, if you remove throw loops, the defender becomes objectively stronger than the attacker - assuming all other defensive options stay in the game... Look up "Why Throws Are Designed the Way that They Are in Street Fighter 6" on his channel. Once you understand how powerful parry and perfect parry are, how to delay tech, how to back-dash throw evade, and how to toss in neutral jumps for good measure, this stops even being a concern.
basically by your explanation the problem isnt throw loops. the problem is people guessing wrong. It's probably why they brought throw loops back. Cause think about it. if you guess wrong in neutral and get hit by the wrong button you could lose 30% to 40% of your hp. which means your 2 more wrong guess away from death. wouldn't that be a bigger problem than having to guess wrong 10 times to die to throw loops? The problem isnt throw loops. the problem is people guessing wrong too much and getting pissed off because they are losing to such a simple move.
If you guess wrong the other way then you still take that 40% though. Either you get throw looped to death like Kakeru, or you risk taking 40% trying to defend against the throw at the wrong time.
@@soggytoast111 but that's street fighter in a nut shell right? strike/throw. Guess right or get hit? Street fighter rewards you for guessing right and punishes you for guessing wrong. Isnt that how fighting games are supposed to work? Or you one of those that dont want to be punished for making bad choices?
I also have a big problem with throws not having any sort of color signal, I mean the game has all this graffitti art to let you know what sort of thing is going on, except for throw loops. Whoever thought it was a good idea just went the opposite direction of the art concept of the game.
The throw tech window lasts until the 9th frame after being grabbed. At 5F startup, that's the 14th frame. Supposedly, trained twitch reactions can be as fast as around 14-15F, but in a fighting game that requires you to be specifically anticipating a certain action and make the right call for a counter. Normal fast reactions are considered to be more like 20F. In other words, throws are not intended to be directly reactable, so a color signal doesn't really make sense. DR and DI are supposed to be reacted to, and therefore have clear indicators .
@@ryo-kai8587 hehe the color thing would have to show you a throw is coming. The thing is that the art is supposed to let you know what is coming so that you don't have to guess and it was heavily shown for a reason. If throw looks are op and you have no way of reacting to them then the game becomes a rock paper scissors guessing fest.
@@gerardesc7221 Maybe. I only play with headphones cause I actually like the music in SF6 lmao And I only recently noticed the grab noise and started practicing to react to it when I think someone will go for a throw. Take it with a grain of salt tho. I'm only platinum 1 lol
