Why Is the LDS Plan of Salvation Different from the Book of Mormon [Radio Free Mormon 352] 

If members of the church are saved by the grace of God, the church can't demand tithing your entire life in exchange for your salvation.

Hit the like button everyone! Let's show RFM some love!!

I freaking love everything you’ve taught me! RFM, you have been a huge help in my deconstruction. Thank you so much! 🎉

Excellent as always. Thank you. The two biggest contradictions that bothered me when first reading the BoM as an innocent Seminary student 55 years ago and then again as a missionary were these: 1) "...without price." (2 Nephi 11:96-99) vs. tithing strictness 2) "Lots of wives...ye shall have none / only one wife..." (paraphrased) (Jacob 2:33-37) vs. polygamy These stuck out like sore thumbs to me, but like a good kid I didn't make a peep about it. I would love to see you cover these. Thanks again.

Bednar's explanation of the process of salvation 27:26 reminded me of the Velveteen Rabbit's process of becoming Real. "Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," he asked, "or bit by bit?" "It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

This was great! Thanks for doing the work RFM! 👍🏼

This explains why i have been so confused.

You nailed it RFM!! Well done. Thanks for making this podcast

Grace is Dangerous to Men who have set themselves up as the ones who Claim that only through Their Organization can an Individual find God.

Excellent! One of the most recent changes in the temple is when they state that “grace is after everything we can do” during the endowment. That has never sat well with me. So glad I no longer have to do the mental gymnastics to make these contradictions work. It was so exhausting.

Bednar and the Church are currently selling the "Covenant Path" ®. As with most of the theological Church Merch that the church has been selling, you can't sell it if the people don't think they need it. The "Covenant Path" ® is a subscription-only product-and-service combination. The Church is the only authorized provider of the product and the product has to be updated frequently (like a crappy operating system). The Book of Mormon makes it sound like you don't need the church or its "Covenant Path" ® product and frequent updates. Bednar knows that the best play is to just act as if the Book of Mormon doesn't do that. Seems to work to a large extent.

This was so so excellent! There are not many sermons if any of Joseph Smith quoting from the BOM, he used the Bible more often. Why? If I am wrong please list Joseph's sermons that proves otherwise? For being a keystone, that should be an eye opener to anyone! RRM you should post your Sunday school notes, these are just amazing. Thank you!

Awesome and brilliant!!

The BofM also teaches that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Father throughout the BofM even despite the changes of adding "the Son of" the Eternal Father to several verses. This was done to keep the doctrine of 3 separate and distinct God's to the Godhead as the church narrative.

A big thing..I was taught in my youth that the atonement doesn’t cover killing someone. Not so in the Book of Mormon, hence the rational of Brigham Young’s blood atonement

Excellent as always! You’re such an asset the the Mormon/nuanced/ExMormon community RFM!

RFM always so handsome in a suit and tie.

@mormon discussion Bill, thanks for the very interesting video. I'm not from an LDS background, so it's always interesting to learn more about the LDS. To put this into the protestant/Catholic categories that I'm more familiar with, it seems fair to say that the BoM passages you read are riffing on the Biblical passages that reformed protestant christians appeal to - for example the phrase "filthy rags" which is found in Isaiah, often quoted by Luther and Calvin. I actually think that progressive justification is compatible with the verses you read from the BoM, the Bible, or the general concepts of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Traditionally (prior to reformation), christians did believe in a moment of rebirth (at baptism), which was a grace from God and completely unmerited before or after the rebirth. Part of the effects of that rebirth is spiritual adoption into God's family, which opens up a christian to new rights and responsibilities as a son of God which could impact their salvation. The obligations, and the growth of christian life, was not thought to be "in addition to" or "in competition with" the instantaneous justification by grace alone/faith alone. It's a somewhat dense but very interesting framework. To me, it sounds like the modern day elders are taking that traditional progressive justification (a more Catholic/Orthodox/Methodist view) and teaching a misunderstood version of it, rather than the BoM which seems heavier on "forensic justification" taught by most reformed/Lutherans. Do you know if the LDS church in general is moving away from its reformed protestant roots and closer to the other churches mentioned above? That would be an interesting note. Anyway as I said, I don't think the verses you read necessarily prove one system or the other. Just an outsider's perspective.

RFM is the rock of my y salvation😎

Thanks RFM! Great insight as usual!

The same changes happen to Saul who became Paul. By Grace Jesus appeared and asked, why do you persecute me? Who are you? I’m Jesus, who you persecute. He was the Pharisee who learned the law and knew the law, and was against believers. Paul was saved by grace! This is how God moves. He sees you through what Jesus did, alone. In James we are told that works are for those in the natural to see that you are different, a new creature. In Roman’s it states clearly that God is the potter and we are Clay. Clay doesn’t get too expressi ts views, but the potter has all the rights over the clay. God has HIS OWN FREE WILL, which men forget & think because of doctrines of men, that they have a choice but God shouldn’t choose according to His WILL; anything different. Thank you for all you do!

Why doesn’t King Benjamin mention baptism at all? It’s something I’ve wondered for a long time.

Boyd K Packer , in the LDS film “Spiritual crocodiles” which we watched umpteen times in Sunday school when I was in youth , has the character playing the Christ figure , pays the debt of the sinner to get him out of prison and then restructures the sinners debt and requires him to pay him back the debt . “ it won’t be easy , but it will be possible “ says the “ Savior” figure i. the film. How’s that for some Mormon grace ? Lol

There is a lot of “Methodist “ in the BOM.

Excellent!

Missing Grace is one of my favorite essays of all time. Thank you! 🫶

RFM. You were such a nerd on your mission. 😂 I would have liked your humor but thought you were a scripture nerd. I also served in Japan. 👍

Thanks!

Here’s the problem, the new narrative as I understand it is we are saved by grace which means we will be resurrected by the grace of Christ or saved from a final death . We do Mormon ordinances ( works, tithes, obedience) to obtain exaltation. Celestial glory and being with your family is the goal that you can work for .This is the explanation I was given by a few area authorities in the past five years. So the explanation is being saved and exaltation are two different things. BTW no longer a participant in the church but I am very knowledgeable after being in for over 40+ years , holding many leadership callings, and attending BYU.

RFM - thank you!! This really helped me open my eyes to see that I’m not locked into a system for salvation. Once question -/// could you elaborate on ‘exaltation’ ? The BOM seems to teach that salvation means full heaven, not just entry into lower class Heaven with possibility of earning higher levels through merit. Thank you!!!!

nice episode

Brilliant! Love this! RFM, just curious, do you still dance?

Thanks for your teaching the truth and helping us to see the Grace of the savior Jesus Christ

Brilliant 👏🏼 Actually awesome. Please change your music. It wakes the baby.

5:50 Carrying on the tradition of bibliomancy I see

Not that I agree with anything in the Mormon religion but praying is an action of worship.

That just helps prove more that it is a 19th century text as Christ never taught this in the New Testament. This is a Paulinian view that really grew as Rome destroyed all other Chrostian Sects and took over Christianity

What work, or effort, did each person play in their own physical birth ? Why would you then believe that you can do works in the 2nd spiritual birth? Side note: Doesn't the LDS church teach that you are reborn when you get baptized into the church?

The mighty change happen more gradually just like paying your tithing in life long instalments..get it?

You might be interested to know that Stephen Harper made nearly this exact same argument in his BOM class 20 years ago.

8 pages x 365 = 2920. I think the book of Mormon, old and New Testament and Pearl of Great Price has more pages. And did you also say doctrine and covenants?

These aren't the words your looking for. Words have meaning.

Grace is too unreliable in requiring members to give money and obedience to Church leaders. The Brethren Guild teaches us that the "tithing must flow". Now obey and forget that so-called "grace".

ok, let me give some examples left out of your video. Nephi listened to his father preach. And he prayed about it and “the Lord did soften my heart that I did believe all the words of my father.” 1 Ne . 2:16. No angelic appearance, no open vision, just a softening of his heart so he believed. Similarly, Alma’s father Alma the elder from all we know simply believed the words of Abinadi. Yet nobody would doubt the depth of his having been born again. Likewise Enos, impressed by the words he had often heard his father speak, prayed all the day long and into the nighttime, earnestly desiring to feel the joy of the saints his father taught him about. Enos 1. You can be like Enos and determinedly pray over several hours for that change of heart we call being born again, or you could determinedly pray for the blessing day after day for many long years as Daniel did. Or it might come as a result of miraculous intervention because your family and the church pray for you as they did for Alma the younger and Paul the apostle. It is simply wrong to suggest that if your conversion, your change of heart, your being born again did not happen with an immediate miraculous event you are somehow a second class citizen in the Kingdom of God. God speaks to us in our own language and patiently leads us until someday we are worthy to stand in his presence. It is being born again, having your heart changed, feeling to sing the song of redeeming love that is the touchstone, not how you came to Him to receive that blessing that matters. I dont criticize you for the hyperbole, but your criticism of Elder Bednar and Elder Christopherson should at least allow for the possibility that you do not know all the Book of Mormon teaches about the experiences of the hundreds of people who were born again.

Mormonism isn't compatible with the Book of Mormon. "And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil" (3 Nephi 11:40) Where is marriage sealings, baptism for the dead, tithing, washing and anointing, Endowment ceremony, three Heavens, three degrees in the Celestial kingdom, etc, etc in "Jesus's" message to the Nephites? As a TBM this bothered me.

Alma had his second anointing.

Let's talk about BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE TRINITY. First, in order for you to understand the Biblical evidence for the TRINITY, you must first stop trying to "put God in a box..." God's Divine Triune existence is BEYOND human understanding and the physical limitations of this world. Let's hear what God Himself says about this in: I TIMOTHY 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: A. God was manifested in the flesh, B. Justified in the Spirit, C. Seen by angels, D. Preached among the Gentiles, E. Believed on in the world, F. Received up in glory. Notice the following: "God was manifested in the flesh..." while on earth, God did all the things Jesus did as stated above., "Great is the mystery of godliness..." God is God, His Divine existence is BEYOND human understanding and the physical limitations of this world. So stop trying to "put God in a box." Next, let's go to: ISAIAH 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me..." (Mormons, this verse is for you, you cannot be a god) Keep this verse in mind, because we are going to circle back to this in a little bit. We are going to show the Divine identity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. GOD: We have God identifying Himself to Moses in: EXODUS 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." We have God identifying Himself as the "I AM." JOHN 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." We have God identified as the "Word." JESUS: We have Jesus identifying Himself in: JOHN 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." We have Jesus identifying Himself as the "I AM" the same title God used in Exodus 3:14. JOHN 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." We have Jesus identified as the "Word" the same title God used in John 1:1. I TIMOTHY 3:16 "...God was manifested in the flesh..." HOLY SPIRIT: We have Peter talking to Ananias in: ACTS 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (Jehovah Witnesses notice that he said that you are lying to the Holy Spirit) and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." We have the Holy Spirit recognized as being God. We have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all recognized as being God! Let's circle back to ISAIAH 45:5 where it says: "There is no God besides Me..." With this verse, and all the other Bible verses Oneness, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons use to oppose the Trinity, we either have complete Kaos here with this contradiction, or, since God says that He is "not the author of confusion..." (I Corinthians 14:33). We can confidently conclude that the only explanation to untangle this contradiction is: "TRINITY" But wait, there's more Biblical evidence for the TRINITY, let's go to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are going to show God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all at the Resurrection of Jesus. GOD: We have God raising Jesus from the dead. *Acts 3:26 *I THESSALONIANS 1:10 *Acts 17:31 JESUS: We have Jesus raising Himself from the dead. *John 2:19-21 HOLY SPIRIT: We have the Holy Spirit raising Jesus from the dead. *Romans 8:11 We have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all at the Resurrection raising Jesus from the dead! Amen... There you are Oneness, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE TRINITY. TRINITY 3= 1 GOD

It's not a plan of salvation. It's just a plan of damnation. Based on activity levels and the number of non-mormons, the vast majority of God's children will never be saved. But they will be damned.

Only all their prayers are directed in the name of Jesus which is a form of idol worship.

When you seek answers from the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible, God can't help you because you have turned your back on Him. Therefore this leaves the door open for Satan (II Corinthians 11:14-15) to step into your life with a false christ or prophet showing you signs and wonders to lead you away from the real Jesus of the Bible who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God. God Himself warns us about this in: MATTHEW 24: 23-24 "Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! Do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect..." Mormons teach and believe that their jesus is the brother of Satan, which contradicts what God says in His Bible that Jesus is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God. So Mormons, which Jesus do you believe in? A. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan. OR B. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity and the Eternal Creator God.

Salvation Through The Grace of God Alone is dangerous to the LDS Elders, as it negates the necessity of not only their lofty station, but the LDS Church in its entirety. Salvation Through God’s Grace Alone is a threat to every Christian church’s existence. Things like this are why I distinguish between religion and faith. Religion is organized, weaponized faith that exists only to sate the base desires and power fantasies of humanity. Faith is one’s personal relationship with their God.

Christianity has been grappling with mercy/works for centuries. Why should a murderer be forgiven in an instant and granted access to heaven? On the other side, why should anyone pay an infinite penalty (eternal damnation) for a finite crime? Christianity (much less Mormonism) has no good answers.

Thanks!