HSE: God Tiers 

*m i c r o*

Micro Banana Britches

M1N4N4 8R17CH35

I was just about to comment on that!

"'Up is down.'? Well that's just unncessarily unhelpful."

I like the idea of a placebo, but are you not kind of forgetting conditional immortality? That part isn't that dependent of reality, and has nothing to do with aspect. It connects more to the "story"/game part of homestuck: "they shall die only if killed, in either a heroic or just way" sounds like a myth, a story, because it is. One of the great part about homestuck is that it is also a self-aware story.

Sixela963 The conditional inmortality is part of the God Tier ascension, just like the hability to fly. You don't need to be inmortal to use your classpect powers.

wasn't there also supposed to be a whole "subplot" in sburb (that everyone but Dave skipped for plot reasons) where each player got an item to use their aspect through, before losing it and realizing they never needed it at all? I think GT-ing is also kinda like that. It's nice to have (we see Dave still using his TimeTables long after he no longer needs them in the epilogue), but it's not essential for power.

@@davidrigdonrigdon4848 What item? The only one that comes to mind is Rose Crystal Ball(?)

@@davidrigdonrigdon4848 Kind of a late reply 😅

ugh same

I mean it kind of does. It's more than a power system, and it can be applied to the self just like any other system we use. Prominent examples include: the alignment system from D&D, the MTBI 16 personalities, the 9 enneagram types, and the houses in Hogwarts/Ilvermorny.

I like to think of it as, a physiological theory, in the same way you can apply Maslow's hierarchy of needs to life in any way. you can also apply your own self and friends to homestucks system.

it does really the whole superpowers thing is just an easy way of visualizing what they mean, everyone has a title, and knowing it will unlock your potential, as when you know what you are and what you can do you can live up to your full role.

I’d love to be the Heir of Heart in real life!

From what I understand, Grimdarkness is when a person succumbs to their deepest, darkest thoughts, as such desires and beliefs become their sole defining traits.

@@SomeFreakingCactus and they defy thier own aspect as a result. Rose in grimdarkness became akin to a witch of void rather than a seer of light

Time to do something dope with hope.

There's a reason WP could make what amounts to an Aspect Astrology quiz, and explcitly associate the troll characters in Hiveswap Act 2 with Aspects (and Dream Moons) - Aspect ties deeply to personality and values, not just superpowers. In the Homestuck lens, everything in the Universe is ruled by the twelve Aspects, and it's easy to connect people innately or inherently to one over the other eleven. For example, I just used like thirty words to say "I agree", which means I clearly got the correct result when the quiz gave me "Lightbound".

good take :-0

Time to bend Light to my mighty will!

have you guys seen the feferi route on pesterquest? one of the ending heavily hints towards that theory

My big issue is that if that were the case, we'd expect a bad outcome for Clover. That's not what we see! Clover is in fact quite happy to have a crush on Karkat, he's excited and pleased about it--even messages Karkat in later snapchats. That isn't really an unlucky outcome. In fact, a new crush is probably one of the luckiest things that can happen in a battle, I figure.

optimistic Duelist I mean, hey, if some nubby horned loud mouth managed to tie me up that skillfully, I'd probs develop a crush myself. Also, fair enough. I see your point.

ecchiCharmed one of my biggest issues with homestucks ending I wanted to see A Gamzee’s rage powers allow him to break outta the fridge and do something funny like get kicked in the nuts by lord English B God tier equius cuz I like void aspect as I’m a bard of void just not on Roxy and C just see more aspects like blood get used but we saw a lot of cool class powers combining I just felt heart was wasted as it shot the same lightning as meenahs did & I would have preferred Karkat using his powers of just dying again and fighting clover and having us knit pick at oh maybe it’s like a critical hit thing or he was able to knock out clover cuz he was a knight of blood and got like some sorta cool hit on him :/ idk just feel like a lot of potential was wasted buuut we do have the next to very last update to look for where the gangs gonna probs fight caliborn for one final hoorah at his dark carnival he made with Gamzee

Ok, but: alpha Calliope. She was neither born of the game nor a player of it, yet she was able to affect reality through her fanfiction.

Jake Fassino Doomed Calliope played.

Phesheya Bhembe I literally specified *alpha* Calliope. Just because one version of her played doesn't mean all of her selves get powers. By that logic, Poppop Harley should have Hope powers, and Alpha Bro Time powers, but they don't, do they?

Jake Fassino I know what you said. They might. Like the video said, alt people like the emperess have used title related powers.

I don't think the game is responsible for the powers, I just think it helps people who don't biologically have them to access them.

stealing through life. that's a way a class can work i think you're right

john's corpse is probably rotting on a stone slab in LOWAS

@@furiousmagician5912 wym, blood players get a totally sweet color scheme

All the outfits are awesome! if you don't like them then whatever.

Eli Jeschke This is true, or it would be if Jane and jade were being mind controlled, but they were corrupted. no matter what put them in that state, their actions were their own and they wanted to do everything that they did. maybe their reasons were understandable, maybe not, but actions speak louder than intentions and the fundamental rule of homestuck is that in the end everyone gets what they wanted.

Jade and Jane weren't just mind controlled - they were corrupted, had their moral inhibitions removed, had an "evil switch" flipped in them by the Condesce. Their actions while corrupted were entirely their own - yet still, they wouldn't have done them had the Condesce not flipped that "evil switch". It's an extremely edge case - which is why Aranea was able to influence the judgement with her luck powers. It had to have been pretty damn close for luck to play a factor.

I think Hussie specified in a newspost after GO that Sburb *only* considers actions when determining whether a death is just or heroic, and not motivations or outside influences. Which is why Rose got a just death for attempting to attack the Condesce, while John didn't against Jack Noir, because Jack stabbed him so fast he didnt have time to do a thing.

I've heard some people say that the Gift of Gab could also be interpreted as working like a universal translator, essentially removing all language barriers.

I mean, there are seldom any language barriers in homestuck. The trolls speak english with reversed jargon-verbose standards, really convoluted sentences are casual and actual short terms for things are snobbish and pretentious. The cherubs/leprechauns/consorts speak english with differing degrees of complexity. The chess guys speak english avobe a certain level (ex Jack, or the queens), and foot soldiers like the Mayor don't speak but can type and read english. So, what other languages are there to translate? Denizen screeches seem tied to players with the same aspect to the owner of the planet and the Gift of Gab doesn't seem to help, and the unprototyped sprite bullshit is unintelligible. There's nothing to translate in homestuck barring Serenity's morse code.

That's a pretty good point. I think that the interpretation that I'm using is probably more applicable to fanventures than the comic itself, but I still like the idea of it as it seems like a relatively natural extension of its canon effects.

Clock Honestly I always interpreted The Gift of Gab as sort of a joke. At some point of the comic Hussie probably realized that we only see dialogue between characters that happens through texting. This happened because of the platform he chose for his comic- there are no speech bubbles or subtitles of what everyone's saying. Just a written dialogue- which visually speaking, makes more sense to be in texting rather than verbal speech. So Hussie realized how weird it is that we never read a verbal conversation between two characters, and made a joke about it, resulting in The Gift of Gab. Same goes for the badge that allows them to wield weapons without the right strife specibus. Basically, Hussie makes fun of the awkwardness and absurdity of RPGs and other video games, that restrict you with weird rules like that. Which make no sense in a comic. I don't think he ever meant it to be taken that seriously.

inbar b yups, that's exactly it. But the end result ends up being the same: the Gift of Gab enables Dialoglogs for the reader. It's a joke, and literally any excuse would have worked all the same.

I don't think you can since without the superpowers, they're just decriptions of the role you tend to play in the universe.

Phesheya Bhembe and you don't think that knowing yourself and what you are capable of will give you a leg up in the world? You are the only tool you have to achieve succes, if you don't know how to use yourself you won't get very far. Really, that is all that magic is and ever was, systems of thought that allow for self discovery and unconventional thought.

Xenath Cytrin The titles don't help you learn about yourself. They help summerize in three words your qualities which you'd have to already know in order to match with any particular title. Not to mention the difficulty of even defining the classpects in the first place.

Phesheya Bhembe but that is where you are wrong. titles are very broad in actuality, they have many meanings and uses. say you are able to identify that a tool is a screwdriver because you used it to screw in a Philips head, now that you know it is a screwdriver you can use it properly for other things, like if it has a replaceable head you can use it to screw any screw you have the bit for. but more importantly, you know not to use it as a hammer, or a crowbar, because it will damage or break it if you try. determining your title determines what you are good at, what you do best, and what you are not able to do without hurting yourself.

Xenath Cytrin You know what the screwdriver is by the qualities it has. You know not to use it like a hammer not because you happen to use the label "screwdriver," but because the actual device doesn't have the thick handle with a heavy head etc. It doesn't matter that you were able to pin a particular term out of many to the device. You could just as easily have called it "el destornillador." All it means now is that you can use the term when talking to people who recognize it and what it represents. "Screwdriver" is just short hand for the long list of things you already establish the certain device can do in the same way "seer of void" might be short hand for my skills and interests. Thing is at some point you'd have to find out what they are to see if they match the title, but if you found out what I'm like, you can put literally any label on me to summerize. Calling me "seer of void" doesn't especially help. By the time you're sure what my title is, you've known for a while l what I'm capable of.

We know god tiering this way results in a memory merger--Jade got at least some of Jadesprite's memories along with Bec's physical traits. In Homestuck, memory merging seems to be the same thing as become one completely--Dream Rose avoids death in the doomed timeline by becoming part of Alpha Rose's consciousness, which gives Alpha Rose her memories. Hence my use of the term!

If psychic powers are separate from classpect, then why do they all line up so well? Karkat's Lime ability to calm highbloods is Bloodlike, Condy's abilities are Life-like (all of them, if you think stealing abilities falls under Thief of Life, because she stole at least burgundy telekinesis and gold p2iioniic2), Aradia's telekinesis fit Time's motion, Sollux's p2iioniic2 line up with Doom's theme of twos (even if he himself shared that theme of twos), Tav's communion influences Breath's freedom, Gamzee's chucklevoodoos line up with Rage as a denial of agency, and Vriska's manipul8tion takes Light's spotlight/focus/relevance.

Jake Fassino my answer would basically be Divine Coincidence. Or Fate if you prefer. Many other strange parts of characters lives line up with their aspect, from their names to preferred toys to what they end up doing, it is only natural that their pychic powers when they have them, would as well. Also while there are many other trolls that posess telekenisis or mind control, there are no other trolls manifesting an ability to bend time or shrink objects at will or become insubstantial mist. Their pychic powers fit very well with the standard sci fi defenition of pychic powers, which typically don't directly break the laws of physics. (They bend them obviously, but that has more to do with sci f exaggeration than the inteded nature of the powers.)

A coincidence is twice, maybe even three times. Seven times is definitely a pattern (although it could even be 13, if you count the dancestors of those I mentioned who have them (so minus Feferi))

Jake Fassino a natural conicidence follows this rule, what I'm talking about is basically Fate. Fate has other connotations however which don't apply in the Homestuck universe, so I think the term Divine Coincidence works best.

So basically, you're choosing to believe that's it's not a pattern, and instead a 7-13x coincidence, which you explain away by tacking the word divine in front of it? Am I understanding this right? By the way, I searched up 'divine coincidence' to see more examples, and all that came up were Keynesian economic models, so you may have just coined a new literature term.

What words would you use for those 4? We luckily have multiples of those 4 roles to compare against.

Liam White I disagree that Heir is the thematic pair to Witch, instead that it is the pair to Maid. I am of the opinion that Heirs and Maids create their aspect, but their creation is not the primary verb that describes them, instead I find it to be "Embody", "Become" or "Represent"; They manifest as a the humanization of all the typical traits relating to the aspect that they are bound to. I am of the opinion that Sylphs and Witches are a pair, those who change their aspects, due to their mutual deep connection to magic; which is significantly more prevalent than the circumstantial associations between Heirs and wizardry, which are sparse and without depth at best, and a complete stretch at worst. What is an heir but one who inherits? The act of inheritance does not change that which is inherited, it only changes the Heir, or Heiress, filling them with the responsibility of what now belongs to them. John doesn't change the wind, nor does he change freedom. First, by unbinding himself from causality (becoming the freest being in existence) he has given himself the ability to rework fate at his whims; here, he has pushed himself beyond the limits of reality, become more closely linked to his aspect than anyone but perhaps Caliborn. You could make the argument that he has changed his own freedom, but you could equally say he stole the freedom of Lord English, or now protects the entire concept of freedom by placing himself in direct opposition to he who would subject all of reality to his whims- Lord English- or many other interpretations besides. His constant refusal to take the reigns of leadership reinforce that he in truth refuses to change the freedom of others, and limiting them in general is negative in his eyes. The most you could say in favor of this is John's ability to manipulate the breeze; no other Breath player manifest this ability at the scale John does, but that fact is somewhat negated by the fact that John is the only God Tier breath player we focus on at length; and the distinction between "creating" wind and "changing" it is a very thin line from our perspective, so using his "windy things" as an argument is futile. When taken with the clear connections between John and Jane, on numerous levels both obvious and not, alluded to being similar, even so much as to give Jane the IRL title of "Heiress" to show the connection between them, far more than that of John and Jade, the truth, as far as I'm concerned, is plain as day. Equius never takes any action I could consider "changing" nothingness, or obscurity. His blood, however, is used to Create obscurity, blacking out lines of Calliope's book that Gamzee doesn't want read. He also creates nothingness in his accidental destruction of the things he touches. Mituna's one action that destroyed his mind could be argued to be "changing" doom, but given the vague nature of that canonical description, many arguments could be made besides and is thus inconclusive. True, he did change the doom of his party through subverting the oncoming cataclysm, but the circumstances therein are never quite described. The Helmsman's actions as the battery of HIC's battleship seem to be more in line with the creation of doom rather than changing it; especially since he himself is already doomed in the worst way, a slave in both body and mind to the Condesce, alive only so long as she permits.

They're referred to as godhoods by a couple characters! That part of the video included a quote from Vriska referring to John's outfit as his "godhood".

Vriska didn't really ascend in the sense of the personal growth aspect. She got someone else to do it for her and as such, she didn't really realise anything. Vriska is sort of similar to characters such as Gamzee and Terezi who didn't need to god-tier to understand and grow. Vriska didn't need to God-Tier but she did anyway. She saw god-tiering as a way of getting stronger. The game led her down that path of power so that she could realise it was useless. God-Tiering was apart of her process but not the end.

Same thing with Calliborn, he God Tiered without any personal growth.

a self labeled asshole Yeah I think it was just a karkat & kankri thing, even though I’m sure they can still fly as gts we just never really saw the chance for any doomed/tiered vantas’ to do so. I think people think that just because they don’t have wings? Which may be a thing (other popular theories are that they’re too small to see or they choose to hide them) but I would think they would have the ability to, like humans. It makes no sense to apply that to all blood bounds though, since those two are the only ones we see in homestuck.

also been wondering how in the hecc those powers would work?

Maid of Blood :>

but didnt she revive karkat once

Maybe? Canon hasn't said one way or the other yet. I'd guess they probably can, but might not be inclined to very often. But that's just a guess. Whooooo knows.

dont subscribe Most classpect quizzes are terribly made and give no clear description of the results. The best you can do is take the official Extended Zodiac quiz to learn your lunar sway and aspect. As for the class, the best quiz I found is one based on the theories Optimistic Duelist made on the classpect sistem: homestuckexamination.tumblr.com/post/168160703234/homestuck-mythological-class-quiz It's quite long but very complete. Hope this information is useful for you.

I'm pretty sure that's a weird fanon thing and not in the comic itself. We only see one version of a god tier Karkat for a split second, and I don't believe there's any text that supports the idea that Blood players can't fly.

*cries in blood player*

Seems like one of those weird layers of ambiguity in the system. He's wearing fairy wings during that section, and using Aradia's time boxes, so I currently believe he's roleplaying a Maid and so accessing the resurrection/extra life/survivability bonus. He isn't actually a Maid, of course, so he's not as good at it as they are. Jane can just revive with no drawbacks and Aradia is essentially able to summon her own ghost, but Gamzee gets to just keep being somehow alive no matter how much pain and suffering he's in. His form of survivable is painful and grisly, especially for him. But he's able to play the role well enough to manage to stay alive, and so get the job done.

About him being a bard (I'll refer to a bard as similar/equivalent of a Jester): Jesters in all of history/mythology/literature have been these simple people, playing music and being entertaining to the royals, singing about history and telling stories or jokes. Also often referred to as "Fools", for they often did foolish things to make others laugh. Although they usually seem pretty pointless, throughout history they used to serve a very important role! No one was ever really allowed to criticize the king (/emperor) as it would result in them getting executed. The Jesters however, could pass this barrier through their jokes and satire. They often criticized the king in their jokes and made exaggerated impressions of the king, something that was completely unacceptable if done by anyone else. This way, there was still a way to let the king know if something was off. Getting the king back on track, I guess. You can say Gamzee served this exact purpose- being some sort of comical relief as well as giving heavy criticism to the readers, or putting light on something which may otherwise go unnoticed. He's completely absurd and strange in order to emphasize the absurdity of the comic itself and the world he lives in. As for him being a Bard of Rage, I believe he "destroys rage" in the *readers*. Rage is said to be related to strong false beliefs and negative emotions. In this context, it can be seen as the readers being too fixated on the "logic" of Homestuck's universe and believing we understand it all. He forces us to question the basic laws of Homestuck's universe, he forces us to review everything we thought we knew so far. *He destroys the Rage in the readers through his absurdity.*

isnt he the gent of piss