I did a uni paper where we had 6 weeks to: learn a new software (unity), learn a new coding language (c#), and then design, build, and release a game. Nexon is so detached from reality.
Exactly. As an employee at a company, you pick up certain best practices and naming conventions that you make use of on your personal projects. Nexon using file names as evidence of foul play from FORMER EMPLOYEES is just moronic.
@@jonhawk117 Among us in 2020. It was a generic murder mystery game and it was really fun to play with friends. Past 2020 they tried hard to be unique
Corp Inc is more recent. A new game that came out of nowhere, you and your team are just space scrap sweeper and oh boy the game delivers. Helldivers 2 came out of nowhere and was good, but then Sony got greedy. (Thank you Steam for the refund, fuck CorpoRATS).
Nexon really just tried to take someone down with the excuse of, "We buy our products at the same store and write the same genre of fanfic, so clearly they're stealing our stuff".
my favourite line from it was definitely "Since key members of Ironmace were also on the development team of the P3 Project and know how quickly and haphazardly the P3 Project was built, if anything, using assets, design, and code built for that project would have been a hinderance rather than a benefit to the development of Dark and Darker."
Imagine you're an employee just working for a salary on P3 team and did not want to lose a big corp job to follow your project leader that got fired start a new company. Then after they get a cease and desist, your old project leader calls out that all the coding that was made UNDER HIM and with the team members that got poached were garbage and unusable. FeelsBadMan for the members of P3 that stayed behind.
Fun fact: Nexon once sued a programmer named "DrUnKeN ChEeTaH" so all the court filings had to include that name written that way a bunch of times. I just think that's really funny
You missed the best part where Ironmace said that because they have employees who worked on p3 and know how haphazardly it was thrown together it would have been a hindrance to use that source code. Such a fantastic burn especially when paired with the mismanaged company part. Love it, long live dark and darker!
Take any single frame out of dark and darker without any context and anyone would think it's a unity asset flip that was made in a weekend. The difference is dark and darker is an actually good game despite this.
@@snepping1885 they literally ripped off mario kart / other kart games for their game "kart rider" or some shit and now they try to claim the fantasy genre
Not really dude. Saying "I thought it was okay" is not a valid legal argument. They might be winning in the public's eye just because people are so dead set on supporting the small guys but they aren't winning in court and unless the guy who stole copyrighted material from his old company comes up with a better excuse than "I thought what I was doing was okay" then he's screwed and the game is dead.
@@bestieswithtesties but he didn't do that. If he did, Nexus would've proved that source code is copied. They didn't do that. And because court relies on evidence, if they won't do it, they won't win the case.
@@bestieswithtesties You didn't listen or read very well if this what you thought happened. He saved files locally from when he was working at Nexon, not files relating to Dark and Darker or P3 but generic files that were then destroyed. All the files they claim he "stole" are shown to be generic assets from the Unreal store, the files that weren't from the Unreal store are shown to have similar names because they are generic fantasy names. If they really wanted to prove that the files he "stole" are in fact Nexon's property why did they not try to prove they were stole by file hashes and not the file names? Their claims are bogus.
Nah it'll be doa & forgotten since the ceo was arrested for being a drug lord kingpin in meth, and the game was eventually made with drug money and not a overall product in the end sadly, so its pretty much canceled entirely
Its great to finally see a studio clap back at Nexon for once, for those who don't know Nexon has a long history of doing this type of stuff as well as completely abandoning support for games they release if they don't immediately do well in the first couple days after release.
I don't even understand why Nexon is still around. They are so shit they should've died a long time ago. Not to mention they're getting a lot of shills lately due to a certain sexy gacha game.
Another thing about the file names is that the prefixes are usually there to denote what type of asset it is (ie. M_ for material, BP_ for blueprint, etc.) because when you see the file outside of the engine (ie. in subversioning software or just in a file browser), they all share an identical extension (.uasset) so this prefixing is common for practically all unreal games and projects in order to distinguish what the assets are.
Even the weirder ones like GA and GE are because they're using Gameplay Ability System, which was pretty much UE4.2+ standard before Lyra came out with UE5. But yeah, you're 100% right. I'm pretty sure I have a BP_arrow in my fantasy game right now.
My personal highlight was BP_PlayerController, which presumably is just the blueprint implementation of PlayerController.h, which comes with the engine
not nintendo per say but animation studio that publishes pokemon or has some connection to it completely willing to dmca over a screenshot or well drawn drawings
Pixar did it to DMA Design aka Rockstar with Uni Racers and won. They claimed the unicycle from an 198 something short was used and of course the court ruled in Pixar's favor which caused all of the game for the SNES/Super Famicom (I don't know if it was released in Japan) had to be pulled from the shelves. It was mentioned in an episode of Fact Hunt. Heck, Kernkraft 400/4000? stole the song that would become Zombie Nation from a game dev and was rewarded the rights by the court. That was mentioned in a video from Uncanny X.
@@Instabruh.User.. Someone that's actually better than Charlie wouldn't have to advertise themselves stating as such, they would succeed regardless just based on the quality of their content. I know this is a bot but god damn this shit is annoying.
I visited Florida a few weeks back, and I ran into Charlie at a Walmart. I asked for his autograph, and he promptly put me in a headlock and threw me to the ground, where he delivered kick after kick directly to my face. This continued for a total of 2 minutez and 36 seconds, after which he stopped, where I was rushed to the hospital. I just got out and have fully recovered from the physical and mental trauma. Keep up the great work Charlie.
I am a game sound designer, all those files named “AK” are just parameters from the audio engine called Wwise. Also they use very common names such as “volume parameter”, etc. It’s a normal naming convention. All games would be “stealing their assets” if they count game parameter names as “owned material”. It would be like Adam Sandler DMCA every jpeg ever made because it says “1920x1080 pixels”.
@@jamesflames6987 don’t they say in this document that these “assets” are the same as in P3? I thought that’s why they were listing them in the document.
@@jy3406 They don't claim the assets are stolen - that doesn't make sense because they don't own them. They are claiming that the game referencing an identical set of assets indicates it is based on a stolen build. If you read the DMCA claim they actually make a pretty strong case that the game is just a modified version of their game. For example all the characters are the same with the same character design, just slightly altered portraits. It's not like they found some random game on the internet and declared it was "too similar". They already showed the guy was taking files off their servers, then he comes out with a game with identical mechanics and identical assets and we are supposed to think that this is a "coincidence" - out of all the millions of possible assets he chose exactly the same ones as them and put them together in the same way.
@@jamesflames6987 I see, thanks for the clarification. The “AK” files I mentioned are still very basically and commonly named though. Any project using Unreal/Wwise would have those. Same goes for the Unreal Store assets. I don’t think these files in particular constitute any grounds for a copyright claim, since it would be like copyright claiming a movie that uses a third party soundtrack licensed to two separate movies for example. Of course if they actually did duplicate custom made assets from Nexon’s server that’s theft.
@@jy3406 To take the movie example, suppose there are two movies that use exactly the same sound effects, exactly the same costumes, and exactly the same props. Even if all those things are publicly available, it's pretty obvious one movie is based off the other.
@@Adieritno, it was out as a free demo on steam, and only accessible during their playtests. That said, it's likely going to be a drawn out legal battle for them still, rooting for Ironmace!!
@@mbornhorst7 You could buy it. You can no longer buy it. Despite the fact that this event will almost assuredly increase the overall sales of DaD, they could easily say they lost sales during this period.
I love that the Dark and Darker devs didn't only slam dunk Nexon but shoved ChatGPT down their throat in a serious but funny way considering how widely popular AI ChatGPT is right now.
Man, the guys in Asmondgold chat kept saying "If they had proof, they were innocent, they would have put it out there by now! Clearly, they're guilty of this!"... This is what the sound of "Egg on your face" sounds like. I love how we've become a reactionary society and agree with the first opinion and then buy a ticket to the hate train.
@@Smileyreal The funny thing is that asmongold's take is a lot more mature and objective than Charlie here that just repeats whatever the fanboys say. The truth is that Nexon has a real case and imo both parties are scumbags.
That’s the same kind of argument used again Kwite in his whole situation, and well… that ended up being false too. I hate it when people take this whole “GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT AND IF THEY DONT RESPOND INSTANTLY THEYRE OBVIOUSLY GUILTY!!!” Stance online. It’s the most brain dead way to deal with situations like this.
Oh I totally called it, I commented yesterday they definitely think the bought assets belonged to them. Likely because their own devs lied about producing them.
I think we all know who's nexon next target is... hide before they find you bro! they will try to succ every penny no matter where and how small the amount is
This happened recently with Wizards of the Coast. The takeaway from that whole situation was that there are rules in place which say that no one can claim ownership to the *rules* of a game.
That's why WotC has the rules for D&D officially described as "guidelines". They tried to use the fact that D&D is a guideline and not rules they can copyright it.
Idk if you saw it but they dismissed the case because they ruled ironmaiden did not infringe or use trade secrets so could be good news for dark and darker
It's a game that truly depends on its playerbase. You don't want to be left with the top 1%, the average opponent needs to be a new player. Though the chances of us seeing Dark & Darker anytime soon are slim now. Nexon has fuck you money and that's all that really matters in the "court of law". Iron Gate's best option is a crowdfunding campaign...
@@AuthorityCat oh true, sweats can ruin it but the devs are very active in the community and seem like genuinely good people. It would surprise me if they implement a ranking system or something similar to help newbies. 😊
@@AuthorityCat Im worried about this too, but cant ironmace threaten nexon with like loss of profits or something similar due to the amount of time and effort this has likely taken? I feel like that could potentially be enough to shut nexon up because at this point they dont really have much to stand on legally and pretty much only have the money
My childhood was a Nexon game called Mabinogi. It's not hugely popular here in the US, but it had, and still has for the most part, a good sized fanbase that has stuck with the game for years. I played that game from the time I was 7 until I was 18 and still occasionally jump on it to catch up with old friends and whatnot. Aside from the gacha aspect of it, which is very common in Asian games, it was truly the greatest gaming experience of my life. It sucks to see Nexon falling off so hard, but I can't exactly say it's surprising.
combat arms was my nexon downfall, they like all their games. run them into the ground with, devs who can do great work but are forced to make them P2W garbage
Nexon is just the publisher of these games. We can still love the developers (Wizet & DevCAT Studio) & slam Nexon. Nexon also introduced the gaming world to Gachapons & rental costumes.
3:10 fun fact, all these names [assets] seen here are from the Wwise integration plugin for Unreal Engine. Wwise is basically an audio engine that almost all UE games use nowadays meaning these listed "assets" are not the original companies either as they actually belong to Audio Kinetic. The fact they included this in their legal document either means the people comparing data are not devs nor consulted with any (so they should have no business deciding what is stolen or not if they don't understand how asset files work) or they intentionally included assets they don't own but are similar to pull one over on people hoping they wouldn't notice and make DnD look more guilty somehow. They are also clearly trying to use the term files here so they can effectively triple the perceived severity to people who don't understand (which is probably every single person in the courtroom) that a game asset is made out of 2-3 game files.
Holy moly, with that last sentence i could hear the knock out sounds from old arcade fighting games as nexon's death scream was played with highly amount of delay and echo while the devs from DaD sput out a winning quote with the judge narrating the words: *You Win, Perfect*
as a game dev this was so predictable but the fact they had that spread sheet ready to go that fast is beautiful. Every dev knows about these type of assets its amazing to me that they think this would work legal standing.
Sure, game devs know these assets. But not the judge presiding over the case, nor the common juror should it come to that. It wouldn't take much to confuse a lay-person with some deviously worded language. This case has a long way to go before they're out of the woods, no matter how slam dunk of a case.
It always makes me mad when bigger companies always pull claims from thin air to target smaller companies, especially when the only reason is to financially bully them around
@@TrianglePants I believe thin air here just means that Nexon's arguments have no ground to stand on and they knew it. Nexon's claims could all be easily debunked with the slightest bit of investigation/logic (as seen by the so-called "stolen assets" not even being made by Nexon, etc.), and the only motive for making those claims was to financially bully their competition. Nexon had all the resources available to investigate the matter on their own as well before making those accusations, so they either did an awful job, didn't bother in the first place, or decided to make those accusations anyways thinking they could get away with it.
That's how capitalism works, sadly. People who advocate for it don't understand that it isn't ever a level playing field, nor fair. Whoever has more money can use it as leverage over competition, even if they're inferior as a business in a variety of aspects.
Whoever did that spreadsheet better get a nice bonus this year. Looking forward to seeing this game come to full release, and I hope this only gives them more publicity.
@@olegtrushin6220 yes but the issue is that the big company is gonna make it last so long that the small company cant afford it anymore and just has to give up. its a common tactic among big companies who want to ruin small companies early
@@olegtrushin6220 Yes, if somebody sues you, you can counter-sue for lost time and legal costs. If they lose the initial case, then you can be awarded compensation.
Was talking to my buddies about how ironmace so thoroughly proved this shit was frivolous; that all Ironmace needed was publicity. Ty for covering this man you could be making a world of difference.
Watching the two videos on this, it excites me to see that Ironmace is not only taking this so professionally and well thought out in defense of their game, but they're putting on a show while doing it. To respond to a full claim from Nexon about how they've made such a complete, fun to play game in 10 months with just "Skill Issue," I'm definitely rooting for Ironmace to win this, and supporting a countersue for damages and conspiracy (for that false police raid). Looking forward to see how this ends!
watch kira videos on this instead IM is very VERY in the wrong here and i wouldnt call sob stories about "we had to sleep in sleeping bags during winter" etc professional the fact that now-IM employee kept code of p3 on private server after being asked not to also debunks the whole "skill issue" argument
I hope all this just makes dark and darker even more popular and successful .. i definitely wouldn't have heard of it if not for all this .. and now im waiting for it.
Anyone that learns coding gets it imprinted in their head, "USE GOOD NAMING THAT EVERYONE KNOWS" so that anyone can understand what you are doing with a name, through the code. Having a good named Asset/Function/Variable or whatever is GOOD PRACTICE.
Also any competent claim of asset stealing would at a bare minimum include file hashes, and not include freaking asset store filenames for a basis of infringement. Half surprised Nexon wasn't stupid enough to claim "iostream.h" was stolen.
I am 100% sure that Ironmace abuse difference of culture(like work environment, law, etc). They only deal with non-korean streamer and english(Recently they start to contact with korean broad cast, but it seems that many korean gamer and public are not on ironmace..)
A beautiful example of what pure dedication and passion can bring to a game is Hello Games. They were hated at first but fought through it all to build the game we have today
"You can't make a game in 10 months!" Game Jam participants laugh in the distance. Also, Super Smash Bros Melee - 13 months, Uncharted: Lost Legacy - 15 months, GTA: Vice City - 9 months, Final Fantasy 6 - 12 months, Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood - 12 months, Warcraft II - 11 months. Keeping in mind that these games are full releases, many of these games are fully 3D and have all of their own custom assets, and Dark and Darker isn't even finished yet, with more playtesting previously being scheduled for next month before this incident got the game removed from steam, so it could easily end up taking longer than these, especially with the new legal issues to deal with on top of all of that. This whole thing sounds like an attempt to witch hunt that one guy in particular who called them incompetent and announced his intention to quit. I'd hate to imagine what working for Nexon is like and I pity anyone whose stuck working for them if this is how they treat their former employees. It's like they're saying, "This is what we'll do to you if you try to leave us."
What are you talking about? Plenty of people have been talking about this situation. Charlie's take isn't much different from everyone else who's been talking about it.
Unfortunately money might make them win, though hopefully Ironmace launches a GoFundMe or something soon for fans to help back them. There's thousands that are willing
@@darealquest Im just sick of seeing all these clowns completely misunderstand the situation in their pathetic circle jerk. I dont care if you want to root for the small guy or just want to play dark&darker. Ironmace is still in the wrong here and if any of you researched the situation instead of just repeating the same dumb jokes you see in these comments you would know that. Watch kira's videos.
It's not the colors that you're paying for, it's the assurance that the color you pick on screen will be the exact same in print. It seems silly and completely unnecessary for the average user but it's pretty crucial for professionals that sell their digital art in physical form.
it’s so funny because nexon is acting like one of the kids in my class. i teach preschool and they’re acting like a little toddler saying “no no no mine that’s mine” and trying to cry to their mommy
Sadly, not surprised that a major game company would lie about their ownership rights to screw someone else over. *Especially* an ex employee. “We bought the rights to use this in our game, that means if you don’t work for us (anymore) you can’t use them!” Might as well tell me the people running the company are children, I’ll probably believe it at this point. Even less surprised that they tried the exact same thing with their ex-concept artist. “You can put pen to paper? Cool, everything you create beyond this point belongs to us now. Oh, you want to quit and go work for someone else? Haha. That’s cute.”
As a computer science major in college and a back end video game coder. I have to say. If you have no passion for what your doing or don’t have a clear objective and clear vision of what you want your development will be slow. This is because in coding you work backwards you see the concept then you code it from that concept to the starting point. This is why dream or passion projects take so long when the person with the concept doesn’t do any of the coding. But if you have a clear goal, know what your doing, and can use the coding language effectively. You can easily get the back end of the code done in 2 weeks from there depending on your ability to model you can get the models done within 3 or 4 weeks and putting it together will only take a few days. So the fact that this company claims you can’t get a game done in 2 months is bogus because I’ve made large video games (given the models weren’t super detailed) In a matter of 2 or 3 months. So to me it seems like iron mace has a competent coder behind them, decent model artists, and a solid final project view on their hands. While this bigger company was just kind of being bossed around by corporate and couldn’t keep up with the demand. To say games can’t be made in 2-3 months is spitting in the face of all of the passionate game developers around the world. A passionate and clear one man team can create a game from scratch in 2 months. From there all you really is testers. It can easily be done with a normal sized team. The fact this corporate company is so poorly knowledgable in video game development when that’s their main crux of income honestly is just sad and makes me wonder if they just got lucky making this one hit game.
Although I agree to an extent, obviously it depends on the size of the game and the size of the team. Even with a team of around 10 people, getting a high quality game out in 2-3 months is ridiculously difficult even if they are all very driven and passionate about the project.
@@chiefqueef1256sure something like an mmorpg like final fantasy XV might not be able to be made in 2-3 months. But I was referring to the size of the game in relation to this topic being Dark And Darker. A game with the size of dark and darker can absolutely be done in 2-3 months. I’m not saying that something as long as final fantasy XV or even toon town can be made in 2-3 months but dark and darker is no where that length. Also, in games like dark and darker are ever evolving. You can easily get a base version out within 2-3 months. Obviously they want to remove glitches and bugs so they also do test playing. But it can easily be done. The fact is most games aren’t that long (in comparison to FFXV War mmorpg) and don’t have that long of an update history. So to say it’s possible to get an average game complete and ready for beta or even alpha testing is absolutely reasonable.
i think my favorite part of the response is the fact that he used to work there. he KNOWS how bad it is there. why the hell would he copy anything that was made by nexon. i say boycott nexon until this is resolved in favor of ironmace. dark and darker was my most anticipated release for this year and to see it get swiped like this is infuriating
Good luck boycotting nexon lmao cause it wouldn't do much since it's only 5% from Europe and NA China and Korea is where they earn the most of money from lmao
@@CorvusCorone68 and we call that shit underdogma effect where you believe small/poor ones are innocent and pure while big/rich ones are evill and must be torched just because. Maybe it's time to grow up from kid's storybook and look at reality kid
@@CorvusCorone68 the situation is MUCH more complicated than Charlie makes it out to be, the reply by Ironmace kind of fucked them up in their legal standings
1 year later and they are still in the middle of the legal battle. it's fucking crazy how shithead companies like Nexon can drag this crap out so much just to impede Ironmace's developement of the game. hope this shit gets resolved soon and we get Dark & Darker back onto steam.
I've never heard of the game before. Now I have. I can't help but think there are millions in the same boat as me. When this DMCA takedown ultimately fails, the game will go back up. I can't help but think this is a massive own-goal by Nexon.
It’s hilarious how they completely overlooked the potential backlash of taking a wildly popular game off the marketplace. Ubisoft or EA wouldn’t even do something this dumb.
It will never cease to amaze me how he can talk about how excited he is in such a monotone voice. (Also kinda surprised that I got here and saw that the vid was only 40secs old)
Nexon has always been a greedy and despicable company. As a longtime gacha player I have come across them multiple times in the past and they've always used anti-consumer tactics to monetize their games. Recently they have gained some positivity because of a game called Blue Archive which unlike everything else they touch , has yet to be tainted by greed and desperation..... I was hopeful that they had turned a new leaf but I guess thats too much to ask...
Having played it for a couple of months on launch day, I can attest to the fact that even though Blue Archive *initially* seemed relatively free of Nexon's standard greed especially when it came to the amount of Pyroxene (The main pulling currency) it gave the players for free- That well very, very quickly dried up around the 3 month mark once the Raid-meta and Limited units started rolling in. Free Pyroxene became highly scarce, and banner units have such abysmal pulling rates that it was deemed near-impossible for a F2P player to get all of the meta competitive units for both the PvP and Raid leaderboard scene. And now we're seeing especially in the JP server side that 2 concurrent *Limited* character banners are something Nexon is not afraid to promote. The concept of exclusive "Pull them now or never see 'em again" characters is already highly predatory, but doing so with 2 characters (New Years' Aru & Mutsuki as an example) *in the same timeframe* is indication that Nexon is happy to wring their playerbase's wallets dry following the game's success. And with the announcement of several long-time fan favourite characters becoming playable, there are concerns that Nexon will be rolling out Limited banners in throngs of 3 or more, which, as you can imagine, is not friendly for non-paying players. However, they are cleverly blanketing these kinds of predatory practices by heavily promoting things like billboards, promotional events with restaurants and food stalls, and their in-house animation team releasing shorts in order to buy goodwill via BA's admittedly charming visual style and characters. But the greed is very much there, and will continue to fester. It's just that Nexon learned to leverage BA fan horniness to their advantage in order to hide the worst of it.
Nexon basically saying: "Hey! Everyone! These guys are trying to make a good game and I don't like that!" Whilst every thirsty gamer is like: "A good game in these trying times?"
What "suing" is supposed to be for: Protecting companies & individual citizens from being unfairly & unjustly taken advantage of. What "suing" is actually used for: "I have money, but someone else came up with a new idea, I'll just say it's mine, fight a legal battle with them long enough to tank them, & then it is *mine."*
If anyone wants to hear another angle to this story, the RU-vidr Kira made a video that paints a less black and white picture of everything. Keep in mind that he too likes the game and wishes to see it released. But his video is a good reminder to not blindly trust everything either party says.
There needs to be consequences to making fake claims when you then later withdraw them and/or legal challenges. That why companies will think twice about testing the water and trying stuff like this if they think there’s a chance it’ll backfire and will have to backtrack.
I feel that if a law gets made that says all legal costs from both parties is the burden of the loser was made. Corporations would have a MUCH harder time bullying the little guy trying to money squeeze them. You wouldn't have to worry about about a corporation being able to do whatever they want to you because as long as they are making a bs claim, they are now on the hook for my legal fees. Regular folks could get good lawyers too because the corp woul have to pay for it
Ive followed dark and darker and the deva but havent touched the play tests yet as i want to experience the game when its finished and fully released. And this makes me support them even more.
