I love all these little glimpses into the characters' pasts. They're fleeting but vivid. They could make an entire movie about Tom and Shiv's courtship in France and it'd win a lot of awards.
Have you guys noticed that he always act this when shes vulnerable. First time when Logan had a stroke and she was obviously vulnerable: he proposed to her. When he was going to prison: he tried to baby trap her. Now that his protector is dead: he talks about old times . I think he definitely cares for her but he still definitely really manipulative here
Shioban seems to be in a lot vulnerable situations. Anyone who deals with her places themselves in her vulnerable situation. If the man is dead, it's speculation about the future and a discussion/remembrance of things past.
Wrong. Tom is scared of Shiv, that's why he only tries to get his way when she's vulnerable, because it's the only time he feels she's weak enough for him to influence her decisions. Shiv is bigger manipulator by miles. If you notice, she's no different. The only time you see Shiv be romantic, caress or be gentle with Tom is when he's trying to address her wrong doings.
@@iamcase1245 Not wrong, Tom may be intimidated by her but not scared enough to not betray her to Logan and then use the vulnerable info that she says about it being her fault her father died to throw it back at her when it suited him. He’s in love with the power and in the end he choose it over her. If he was just so scared of her he wouldn’t have been able to make the moves that allowed him to win in the end.
"then use the vulnerable info that she says about it being her fault her father died to throw it back at her when it suited him. He’s in love with the power and in the end he choose it over her." - Now explain to me how she didn't deserve it. Go ahead. Please explain who it was SO wrong of him to do that and she didnt have it coming. Then explain how this wasn't the perfect time for him to do it, because again, he's weak and he's terrified of her so this was his moment to finally get even for all her abuse. Tom wanted to be accepted in into the Logan family and early on he had great intentions for Shiv and the family. The first season is basically dedicated to showing us that side of Tom, but.... he's weak. And weak people become manipulative when they're challenged. Shiv was non-stop abuse and emotional manipulation and so he waited until she was at her lowest to finally kick her when she's down. @@Crimsy3000
1:54 honestly so sinsterly magical. Jesse Armstrong stumbled on a gold mine when he had this idea. As a writer one can only dream of writing something this good that also happens to be auto-fiction. This show probably made me realise that HBO is the goat and there is NO question.
I'm still surprised that Tom didn't catch on when Shiv mentioned that the whole idea of Logan rocking his grandkids to sleep is fucked. Come on dude, she literally said she's pregnant 😂
@annkey4091 it's so evident though 😭😭 her comment was out of pocket and he should have caught on her emotion the second she said that the plan was fucked
Tom is one of the only people in the show shown to have a relatively normal background, relatively loving and supportive parents, and displays “normal” affection. He’s an opportunist as they all are, but he genuinely loves Shiv and if he’s manipulating her (I don’t personally think he is) then it is to regain her affection, not further his position. I’m not sure where all these people are getting the read that Tom is as Machiavellian as the others? In regards to business, sure. But interpersonally, he’s pretty loyal and regularly displays guilt, remorse, empathetic happiness. Brilliantly written character as are they all. Side Note: Sarah Snook is fucking incredible. Her face as she’s brushing off the story and then Tom mentions the letters and the shirt and you can see her remember a memory for, probably, the first time in years. And then the walls immediately go back up because she can’t afford to feel those feelings.
It's both. Of course he's manipulative, but that doesn't cancel the fact that he still has feelings for her (and viceversa). The whole thing about them is that it's almost always both: manipulation and sincere care, and the line is so blurred that is almost invisible. Almost. Tbh, I love it.
Every character on the show is out for power. Even Tom. However, Tom reminds Shiv along with telling the audience that he has courted Shiv (for a very long time) and has attempted to show her kindness more than anyone else in her life (including her own Father) . Even if the goal is power and not love, Tom states the fact that he has done so....maybe sad overall, but true.
Because he's in love with her. Everyone else has no attachment to her so they can treat her like the fake and the bratty child that everyone knows she is. Tom and Roman are the strongest businessmen next to Logan, but as a husband/boyfriend Tom is incredibly weak, which is why he is lets Shiv walk all over him.
It's with full stops. It makes a difference. She will regret being harsh to the only person who sat there to listen to her during that day. He wanted to show her some kindness and you can see her letting go and actually talking and sharing how she feels about everything while for the rest of the episode she had her guard up because everyone wanted something to gain from her or to push her out of things.
I think at this point all three kids are hugely sympathetic even when they continue to do destructive things. This scene made Shiv the absolute most sympathetic for me this week. More than any of the other characters, she misses her dad, she still wants her dad alive and present in her life. Roman might have a claim there, but I think with the three brothers it's much more regret about the relationship they did have, disappointment mixed with relief (Connor said it best last week; yeah he liked me but I never made him proud). Shiv actively wants the man, terrible flaws and all, to still be alive. She sees clearly how little love she has in her life - none from her mother for sure - untrustworthy and conniving at best from her husband. She's pregnant (I'm going to assume with Tom for the time being) and has absolutely no one to share the joy with. I think Tom is hopeless. Yeah, he was kicked a lot by Shiv, but there was always this undercurrent that he was using her. He got very, very little out of the relationship until he backstabbed her. And it's not like this is the Sopranos where the characters are tormented by Catholic guilt and family tradition when it comes to divorce. Tom had plenty of exits from the relationship before his heel turn. I'm firmly in the camp that he's sucking up to Shiv here, not earnestly trying to repair the relationship. I think she sees right through him. Yeah, he sits there and listens, but it's not a comfort to her to transition back to the early days of their relationship. She's suffered an actual loss, and everyone else is navigating the gulf.
That's a hot take on Sopranos. Catholicism was only ever an excuse when they needed it to cover their vices/choices. Did you forget the scene with Carmela at the therapist and what he tells her? But she would only leave with a blood money payout. I think Shiv (all the kids honestly) had a very psychologically scarring childhood and don't know how to maintain normal relationships. But she kept Tom around cause he was devoted to her (and sure maybe using her a little) but in some ways she is exactly the way Caroline described Logan: "Loves to kick dogs to see if they'll come back".
@@StormInATeaCup35 I'm re-watching the series right now, and while Catholicism is a complete joke/fraud/convenience for Tony, it's serious to Carmella. Yeah, she should know better, she's "been told" by that therapist, but divorce is still a cultural taboo even if it shouldn't be in 2004. They're just one generation removed from people sticking together out of religious and family duty, and it's even more magnified within the insular world of the mob. Carmella being a hypocrite doesn't diminish the cultural factor at play. My point above is that the Roy's have no such sentimental notions towards marriage or divorce. Tom had very little keeping him around other than professional ambition. This channel just posted the clip of him sucking up to Kendall and Roman in the same episode, and I think that's the lens to view this interaction with Shiv as well. And I think it colors past episodes more fully despite Shiv's awfulness. As to Shiv's awfulness, I do agree with your final line. But man, talk about a line that made me sympathetic to Shiv. Because the context of Caroline saying that is that she knowingly left the kids to be kicked by Logan. To make another Sopranos comparison, I think Livia loved her kids more than Caroline (not saying she was a better mother).
“Because the context of Caroline saying that is that she knowingly left the kids to be kicked by Logan.” Oh, wow. That’s very good. @DLSacks, do you think Caroline understood what she was saying there? At the time, I just thought it was insightful. But now I wonder if any part of her at all was trying to make the most opaque, passive-aggressive apology possible to Shiv.
Matthew Macfadyen plays inscrutable too well. That’s why he was an excellent Darcy and why I cannot figure out what on earth Tom is trying to do. I think all fan theories have merit and that several can be true at once, making his character the most terrifying in his unpredictability. Sure, he could still have feelings for Shiv, but he is not shying away from his corporate ambitions, and then there’s Greg-And let's not forget Tom’s attempt to schmooze Kendall. I could go on, but it’s too much to fathom. Also, where is his mother, the attorney who told him the initial prenup was brutal?
I mean we all know Tom always goes with the flow which means whoeves is the best option for him but I genuinely think he's only honest and real when it comes to Shiv, I think the actor has said several times Tom is scared of shiv XD but at the same time is the only person he's 100% honest with, good, bad... but always honest...
He is just giving her a happy memory to think about when she has lost hope. I think the outsiders unlike the Roys still have the genuine and human side to them as they all had a very loving middle class childhood.
I truly don’t see the Tom everyone is in love with. The relationship although having some love at the start has always been transactional at some level. In the relationship with Shiv, he has more to gain (he wanted to take her last name too). A position at her family’s company, a rise through the ranks and even the hope he could be the CEO. Now his protector is dead and naturally he will crawl back to the Roy children. He brings up fond memories with Shiv, then shares a word with Kendall, and a word with Roman reminding him of Logan wanting him back in. All ways of getting some protection and security for his job. So this scene was a desperate ploy to save his own ass.
The difference was that Tom was legitimately in love with Shiv from the beginning. She demeaned him and treated him like a kicked puppy - she never loved him or respected him. Sure, Tom is a social climber, like everyone in this show, but he went out of his way to be a supportive and caring partner to Shiv. The way she treated him (and from what we infer, her other exes) is fucking unconscionable, clearly believing she is born superior to them and they should be grateful for her attention. Tom gets characterized as spineless, but she never had the dignity or spine to have a real talk about their relationship. Her real feelings come out accidentally, and are always hurtful and venomous. Tom basically chased her down to get straight answers up until the end of season 3. So, fine, what Tom is doing is cruel self-interest - he's finally stooped to the level Shiv has been operating at their whole relationship. No tears from me, she deserves it. Shiv is an A-class, narcissistic, arrogant, delusional psychopath.
@@robertmacdonald5496 what is with you guys going full out on Shiv? She isn’t a narcissist or a psychopath, but she IS arrogant and callous. You taking her character to such an extreme is doing a disservice to the clear nuance she has, and the emotional connections that are very much apparent in the way her character is played. She is not especially more evil than anyone in the show, despite the weird narrative you’re trying to paint here. Maybe reassess some biases my guy
@Maria Santos ...Shiv is absolutely a narcissist. The way she treats most people in her life is degrading, emotionally abusive and yes, narcissistic. What's with people acting like the only thing fueling negative opinion of Shiv is misogyny? If I call Roman a perverted, maladjusted, deceitful coward, no one bats an eye. I call Connor a delusional, creepy manchild who is coercing a woman into a relationship? Fine. But I point that Shiv is just as fucked up and morally empty as the other Roy kids and suddenly I have a bias. News flash: They all suck, all of the Roys, in their own special way they are objectively terrible people. That's the point of the show - some are worse than others, but there isn't actually a lot of moral complexity. Shiv isn't some delicate flower with these hidden well of deep empathy. Her behaviour is literally classic narcissist personality disorder - cheating, lying, gaslighting, delusions of grandeur, expectation of great rewards regardless of effort or experience, moral grandstanding, perpetual persecution complex. She clearly gets it from her Dad.
I'm still team Tom. And yeah sure, he tries to manipulate the siblings and the other company players in this episode (although I think he is somewhat honest with Shiv here) but that's the modus operandi for every single character on the show. Tom was always treated with some level of disrespect by everyone around. Remember the boar on the floor thing? Or the awkward dinner scene where Shiv and Roman made fun about his clothing style? Or the time period where the company would've sacrifice him for the corporate wrongdoings? I can go on: Kendall blackmailing him in the parking lot after trying to get him on his side or Shivs' proposition for an open marriage during their wedding night. And yeah sure, he could've walked away from his life with this family and the position within the company at any time, but you could also say that about all the other characters on this show. Everyone is staying for the power here. At the end of last season, Tom had finally understood that he's an outsider and that he needs to play every card to stay in the game. That's what he's doing here and that's what Greg is trying to do with Marcia. They owe this family or people like Frank and Karl nothing. I mean why should they care or feel sorry for Roman or Ken at this point? And of course Tom isn't very sad about Logan - yes he promoted him for his information about the siblings' rebellion but of course he hasn't forgotten about all the things he had to endure from his father-in-law up to this point. He used Logan and Logan used him. Now, Tom is searching for another alliance. In this world, power is given by the right person(s) at the right time and right now, Tom and Greg seem to be the only ones who fully understand this. The truce between the siblings is already weak and was never going to last. Both could profit from that and honestly, I don't blame them. Besides Connor and Willa, they are still the only ones within this toxic family who have repeatedly shown at least some kind of loyalty and compassion towards others. Why should I root for people like Kendall, Shiv or Rome who (to quote Connor) are constantly complaining that their spoons weren't shiny enough? I would rather like to see people like Greg, Tom and Connor climbing up the ladder than any of the other power players within the show. Edit: Team Tom has succeeded 🎉
This is a nice critique of Tom. I always thought that IF (by some miracle) Shiv was named CEO, Tom Wambsgans would have to be right there with her. As your edit noted: Tom has succeeded WITH Shiv's help, which is something that I think that she always trying to do but in a backward manner. In other words, she wanted anything that Tom received through Waystar|RoyCo would be through her benevolence. In a sense, it did pan out the way she planned, but she had jettison the company to get him there and unwittingly undermine herself. However, she did do as Logan and Lady Caroline wanted and sold the company to GoJo. The new corporate outsider (Matsson) decided that the outside/insider (Wambsgans)would make a better CEO, for his needs, than any of the Roy blood family.
Am I the only one who believes the only reason Tom got this romantic is solely due to his last efforts of surviving Logan's death and loss of a safety net? I don't buy it for even a moment- but that's the thing about this show. It's REALISTIC- and Shiv is a woman who has been trying so hard to not be aware of that but at this point, it's coming to an end. She is pregnant, iced out by her brothers, and cannot seem to escape Tom. They are both going to be stuck together, and deserve each other. This show is so heartbreaking man. I wish all of the siblings had a chance at real love, but their trauma got in the way. How much free will do we REALLY have, when we have so many predeterminations and genetic clutches that leave us stuck within that the rest of our lives. Living is both beautiful, but incredibly cruel. Yes, I have depression. lol
I'm completely with you. If she wasn't Logan Roy's daughter he would never have put up with even half of their relationship. The point has already been made that if Shiv isn't even batting for him then he's in a precarious position. And his big "romantic" speech is just "remember the last time you were weak and I was the only good thing in your life?" It's beautifully done. It really is so subtle. And Tom's not some moustache twirling villain, but we are seeing that Shiv has picked a man not so different from her dad I fear, despite her best efforts.
Yes, they made a point of showing Tom trying to curry favor with everyone in the room now that he's back to square one. I think this moment with Shiv was as sincere as it was manipulative.
Shiv has been kicking Tom since season one and he finally turns around and bites her and now she is appalled and mad at him. You can't keep abusing someone and expect them to remain loyal.
@@miseendriste6337 exactly, his true colors showed in this episode, dude was ready to swear fealty to the old guard before saying one word to his recently orphaned in-laws, wtf?
@@miseendriste6337 their relationship really started going downhill when she didn’t care for the infidelity clause/the open marriage arc. Prior to that she was kind of dismissive but she defended him and was more responsive. He’s definitely manipulating her here but you can tell he still loves her and the biggest blow was the open marriage request right after they got married. I wouldn’t say he’s much of a cold social climber in that regard, he’s kind of both. He was the one who suggested they run away and be farmers!
@@miseendriste6337 It’s not binary. It isn’t just either Tom loves Shiv or is just manipulating her for power. Both can be true at the same time. I think he was genuinely trying to comfort her, while at the same time trying to make her feel for him as a bonus.
sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who remembers the scenes where they clearly express genuine mutual affection, such as the wedding scene where shiv seems almost overwhelmed with emotion as they tell each other they love each other, or the scene from the premiere where they're both distraught after shiv requests a divorce. I think people choose to perceive all these characters as incapable of humanity because they're apprehensive of the notion that they might actually relate to them.
@@johnbaker1773 if we’re being honest, a lot of this is pretty one sided towards Shiv. A lot of people repeatedly dehumanize her character and stretch her arrogance and callousness into being full out narcissism and psychopathy (it isn’t). In that sense, the more cynical interpretations I see of Tom are moreso trying to combat the very popular framing that he’s tantamount to a puppy in a suit and not with his own flaws as well. Of course I agree with your comment, but in terms of perceptions it isn’t exactly an equal framing at play
@@MariaSantos-uo3pb oh absolutely, the way so many fans of the show talk about shiv is completely mind-boggling and really more applicable to logan (who often gets lionized). I was just feeling frustrated from all the comments here and what I feel like is becoming a more popular sentiment among the audience that these characters are incapable of being genuine
Optimistically, it's him trying to repair his relationship with Shiv and give her some comfort from the only person she has during this tough time, showing that despite their divorce he is still there for her. Cynically though, it's him trying to regain some power by attempting to win back Shiv's allyship after his only protector Logan has died and he has absolutely zero cards to play. Up for interpretation I suppose
I hate Tom this season especially this Episode, he was soo fine with dating supermodels and being Logan's right-hand man until he died and now suddenly gluing to any Roy in hope of not losing his position, did anyone see how he looked at the Kids and went straight to the dining room to sit with the old guard? And After they harshly shunned him he went groveling back to the kids, hope Shiv continues with the divorce, and she'll probably be amazing mother, some women aren't meant to be good wives but definitely good mothers
@Kimberly A him dating other women is not bad at all, the bad thing is his shameless hypocrisy in Ep4, he "Greged" so hard on the Roys, only after what Karl told him
I'm sorry, stop idealizing Shiv. The reason why Tom is like this is partly because of her treatment towards him. I hardly doubt that any man she is with has a genuine sincere motive towards her esp knowing how much she is worth.
@@morrisoniice idealizing? Where? And no it's not because of her treatment he went this way, it was always his choice ever since their engagement days, It's not her fault that he was ok with being cu**d for his own ambition, Tom only thought that he loved her because she's a Roy, but if she was some ordinary woman from Minnesota that told him in their wedding night "I want an open marriage" you think he'll act the same way and go along with her? Or hit her cousin that warned him about her affair before the nuptial? No Also he offered to go to prison for Logan's approval and then he wanted a baby for insurance, there's millions of men like him for women like Shiv but not the other way, he was even about to cry when she told him in 2x02 that her dad offered her the CEO position, he said "I thought this was something for me?" Edit after 4x07: good to see Shiv pointing out the truth to Tom, the show needed to put light on his real agenda with her too
@@willtoflower This was my thought about Tom also. Shiv seemed to show up at their triplex whenever she heard or read something about Tom and models. I believed that she was jealous and upset even though they she agreed to the separation. Her I came to get a change of wardrobe was suspicious. I thought they had a get mad, then glad in the boudoir relationship --- usually during the wardrobe exchanges.
I had thought for a time that Tom was Matsson's inside man. But so far these last two episodes have been about all the suck asses making their moves, and Tom was working on his suck ass skills pretty hard in this episode.
I think they're getting back together. I think Shiv will be the only sibling with a happy ending (in their universe, not just the show's finale). Connor's marriage will be fold, I think Roman will be sucked into the Waystar world, and I do believe Kendall will die at the end of the show.
@@FaithAquamarine16 so glad i’m not only one sad about it, really hoping nicholas brittel releases some extended version of the season four album where this is included bc i keep coming back to it :(
All these comments from Shiv fans saying Tom was being manipulative here are so transparent. Tom did NOTHING wrong here.....he has ALWAYS shown Shiv love...there is no reason to think he was coldly manipulating her other than that her fans that know what a piece of shit Shiv has been to Tom dont want her too look worse so they trash him. And even if he WAS manipulating her, that is nothing compared to the heart ache she caused him all through their marriage.
Shiv on the end of Season 3: I love you but I just don't love you. *Tom betrays her on Season 3 finale* Shiv throughout Season 4: "I cAn'T bEliEve YoU bEtrAy Me, ToM!"
I was thinking Tom was inside man for Matsson, and when he backed Logan inthe last season and betrayed Shiv, Kendall, and Roman last season I was sure of it. But these writers have made him look just like another suck ass. Somebody in this group is working with Matsson.
Amazing writing. More proof of Tom's weakness and proof that Shiv married a weak man he had no desire for, because she knew the type of strong man she lusts for would have no patience for her bullshit and childish passive aggression.
