I believe the Reverend Mother is neither good nor evil. She is the product of the Bene Gesserit breeding and training program. She is playing the role that was laid out for her centuries ago.
The sisterhood are not "witches", that is a term that is used as an insult. Also the sisterhood don't use magic, they have control over their bodies that to some may seem magical but it is advanced evolution and intense training.
312 years after the Salem Witch trials and this moniker is STILL applied to women with "supernatural powers". I've never heard of the Mentats being described as warlords.
The Lady Jessica is the daughter of Baron Harkonnen and Reverend Mother Mohiam. The Baron was a homosexual and this is why his heir was his Nephew. The Bene Gesserit needed the baron's offspring for their breeding program but since he would not willingly participate in the BG plot; they had to Blackmail him by threatening to reveal his illegal stockpiles of spice to the Emperor. Mohiam, then a breeding sister, was chosen to collect the sample and birth a female child. The baron was so enraged by this blackmail that he raped her, savagely. During the assault Mohiam deliberately passed on to the baron a virus, that made him grotesquely fat and sickly, as a punishment for his attack. Jessica only discovered who her mother was when she underwent the spice agony and gained access to her genetic memories. Paul also became aware of this after he took the water of life but his sister Alia knew this when she was born.
Mohiam was drugged with a paralyzing drug. I really wouldn't try to rape a Bene Geserit in that universe. Especially a full Reverse Mother. She wouldn't kill him, because the results of the breeding program (Jessica might of been a poor breeding result.) but he would KNOW what she did to punish him. I think the Baron would of been fat, disease or not. The disease degeneration made him worse. Herbert has a mention of how the rich (As a Bene Geserit observation.) become jaded, bored, and "Seekers after sensations" and worse the longer they live. That describes the Baron quite well. Sad thing is he's a "human", or the Bene Gesserit would be very unlikely to use him for breeding in secret (He knows nothing of Jessica as his child.) if he wasn't human. He just closes to consciously be bad and evil.
Calling a pedophile a homosexual as if that were the umbrella term makes me think, even so, it cannot be given the idea that the baron was simply gay and only had relationships with adults.
Born in '82... The original movies were so cool to me... Seeming so mystical and futuristic. As a grown man watching the new adaptation it's incredible. I'm Completely satisfied with what he's doing, all the actors and the story. I couldn't be more excited for part two. I find myself feeling like a child again... Thank you Dennis, truly.
As a writer, the ability to create an entire universe with different levels of characters, WITHOUT leaving plot holes, is fantastic. I remember the failed version of the movie in the 80’s and never cared to read the books. I’m definitely going to read them now.
I was thinking about one plot hole within the "accessing memories and talking to ancestors and succumbing to their consciousness" think the bene gesserit and abomnations have: If your mom, an ancestor of yours, is still alive, how does the "talking to your ancestors" work if they are alive and the new memories they are making after your own creation with their genetics work? Your mom's genetic memory is within you, there are instances where ancestors take over the minds of the weak descendants, how and who would take you over if your mom is going to take you over through her genetic memory within you, but at the same time, is still alive standing next to you physically? Would the situation end up with having two moms coexisting? Or 1 mom having an expanded existence with her own body and additionally the mind she took over?
@@DragonFetishFire I also thought that. The Lynch film made her a lot more royal. but I did not like how in the Lynch film. I also felt in the miniseries she felt a lot weaker than the character was supposed to be.
@@DragonFetishFire I agree except for the scene where she loses it after she and Paul lands. That moment didn't work. The rest I agree though. I am a huge fan of Alice Krige who played Jessica in Children of Dune, but she did not do it justice.
The praenomen, Gaius, which is a male first name in Latin, is a key to understanding the nature of the character. You have to appreciate this through the eyes of the writer at the time of the first novel's publication.
No shade on Charlotte Rampling, but Siân Phillips owned this role. "GET OUT OF MY MIND!"" How do you top that line delivery? She's SO over-the-top: she looks like a walking skeleton, she sounds like iron rasping against granite, and she carries herself like the Empress of Rome. Terrifying perfection.
Loved her in the role but Rampling plus the sets give a real undertone of malice and darkness .... Interesting how it pans out in the next movie .... Can't wait really.
Oh ya, the Villeneuve film is vastly superior to Lynch's kick at the can, no question. I'm just a sucker for Sian; she'll always be my Poison Queen.@@poplife123
But here's the thing, Frank did something brilliant with two groups in this novel and world. They were both meant to be evil and selfish showing what both sides can be capable of if unchecked. He expressed two sides of the sex wars in his books. The Bene Gesserits were meant to represent the extreme form of Feminism, and the Ixians were meant to represent the extreme form of Chauvinism. The Bene Gesserit were anti-men seeing them only as useful pawns in their plans, while the Ixians turned the women of their world into axolotl tanks with no rights or humanity used simply to create clones and other genetic creations.
"The Bene Gesserit were anti-men seeing them only as useful pawns in their plans" yes, they were so much anti-men that they tried to make MALE messiah. And they used all people (Lady Jessica, hello) as pawns in their plans. How sexist is our society that the Dune books are still looked at as 'shows both sides are equally toxic and foils of each other'?
Several of the films or series, that I never talk while watching, because the first 2, a fair bit of the third book, and a little bit of the folliowing 2, and just barely the sixth book, are things that I loved. They way I describe my love of the series is, "I've read them so many times I have that shit damn near eidetic." there are undoubtedly people who know about the EU of Dune which I found dissapointing, but the original 3, and then following 3, are the only canon. My wife never read the books, but we have seen all of the movies together, including the Mini-Series which is great, and I didn't say a word, because anything I said would be a spoiler. All I would do is respond to questions, "Is this like the books?" and I was binary. "Yes," "No." "We will talk later." It's one of my favorite franchises of all time.
Frank Herbert gave it his blessing so for many, including me, it's canon. I believe Brian Herbert is the one that discredited it for obvious reasons; so he could cash in by creating his own canon based on his poorly written, juvenile books.
I didn’t like her when I first read the Dune trilogy. But as it turns out, she was right. Paul was the gateway for Leto 2, the almost eternal God emperor who held humanity hostage for millennia and caused death in unimaginable scale. Had Jessica done as she should, Leto wouldn’t exist. Would humanity if they didn’t follow the golden path?? Unknown, but the suffering of millions rests squarely on the defiance of a woman who loved her consort. The author never fails to impress 😊.
personally, I love everything about Leto 2 To me, he was everything Paul couldn't be for humanity, Leto made that sacrifice for us and sure, millions suffered but ultimately it freed us, The Golden Path was the only way
@@LetoTheThird that’s a great take on it too. Another thing I love about Herbert is his ability to communicate nuance and morally grey characters. The OG of subverting expectations.
His son (Frank Herbert's) and Poul Anderson's son wrote the sequels to the six "Dune" novels. While nowhere near as well written as Frank's books you see where Herbert was leading to. Sadly the "Golden Path" was Leto's only real choice, which Paul rejected. I know Leto's justifications seem thin and cruel in the books, but Siona was the result (Genetically) humanity had to have to survive in the future. I wish Frank had of been able to finish his masterpiece and show where it was going. His outline was lucky to be found and his son and his writing partner did they best they could with the material.
I think, it’s the role in the movie which probably has the biggest impact and recognition afterwards. Like the blue diva an fifth element. She has only a short scene but if u think about fifth element, she is the first character come to mind. The same with dune...
Yes. Yes she did. She infected him in Dune: House Harkonnen. I know alot of people don't consider it part of the cannon of the series as it was written by Frank's son.
True but most of the books are based on Frank's notes as materials that he used As a basis to help flesh out the background of the original books. I have read all of the books authored by Brian and Anderson. One thing I never understood was after the spice agony, Jessica and Alia should have known about Helen as a progenitor. Also why Alia was so influenced by her grandfather, Baron Harkonen, she shouldn't have been able to access the MALE side of her ancestry
I think dhe is proctor superior of the mother school of Wallace 9 . ( chapter house ) headquarters. And sits on the high council. She is probably second on command. She might be the head by book two. ( perhaps)
Alya, is the GrandDaughter of Baron Harkonnen, Jessica is her daughter, who was then "steeled away" and raised within the sisterhood. Feyd, had heard rumors and wanted to take Jessica as his concubine as an insult to the Attreide's and the Bene Gensserit.
One of my prized possessions is a signed first edition of Stranger in a Strange Land. I have hopes that someday there might be a movie, but not if they screw it up like they did The Wheel of Time when they put it on the small screen.
This is Hollywood. Let's make the umpteenth version of Batman or Spiderman, or a female "Thor". We can't make Fred Saberhagen's "Bersekers" into a movie or another new idea. Just the same trash, "recycled" over and over, degrading with each recycling.
they will never make a movie from Stranger in a Strange Land. The book is filled with too many religious themes and, in some people's opinions blasphemes. I cannot imagine them risking pissing off the entire religious population to make a movie. Regardless it is a great work of fiction and one of my top 5 favorite books of all time. But hollywierd would have to cut it up too much to make a movie that even remotely resembles the story.
I would love to see that. But I grok that it probably won't happen in my lifetime. I first read it about 40? Years ago. Reread it last year. I'm 70 and have read science fiction for nearly 60 years.
Just to put it out their... The Bene Geserit are not Psychic. They only practice a kind of Trance maditation that involves practice a variety of mental and physical techniques, including the "Voice" (a form of voice control that can manipulate others). These enchance human abilities includes the ability to their ancestors genetic memory, (accessing ancestors memories) and the ability to chance their physical and muscular make up which explains how they can control the gender of their offspring.
But it would be a challenging thought as perhaps Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Moheim was not the strongest of the order. As it was said that the powers of the transitioning Reverend Mother on Arakis went into Paul’s sister Alia. Who we all saw in the first film that the child overpowered the Reverend Mother. What knowledge and powers did the Reverend Mother that died have that the leader of the order did not have?
The 1984 movie is in my opinion the best rendition of Dune and the actress who played the Reverend mother play the role very well. I forgot her name but it seemed like she had some theatrical training.
Fun facts about Dune; 1) there are zero aliens. All organisms have DNA origins from the planet earth, even the spice worms. 2) the Bene Gesserit are actively working on multiple Kwisatz Haderach lineages, aiming to be in control of them. 3) the Bene Gesserit sisterhood has the same powers as the Kwisatz Haderach, but have primed the universe to follow a man as a secret form of galactic control. 4) the galaxy is in a state of stagnation where the overarching goal of humanity as a whole is to escape the systems of control. 5) spacing guild members, Freman, the Bene Gesserit, and anyone other being with extensive spice exposure all have a connection to other-memories and prescient visions, which strengthens their zealous beliefs with their affiliation (as they see the paths that benefit themselves and their respective groups). 6) multiple factions in the universe are all independently leading to a place where all human information is connected and temporally shared.
These scheming, calculating, deeply manipulative women are the reason why everything in the Dune novels happened the way it did. They absolutely are the driving force.
Actually, finding out that Mother Gaius Helen being Jessica's mother and Paul's Grandmother isn't too outrageous a revelation? As, part of the story arc was described in some of the later books. In Dune Sisterhood, it explains that many of the girls who study at the Bene Gesserit School on Wallach XI, were in fact the daughters of other sisters and Reverand Mothers. After the story arc of Dune, we learned about the secret Bene Gesserit Breeding Program; which was considered controversial because the Sisterhood was violating the Butlerian Jihad mandate against using a computer database to keep track of the genetic samples. In the later Dune Novels we see that many of the future Reverand Mothers in the Dune Universe, are descendents of Paul Atreides himself.
@@timothymoore6341 Yeah, Sian was great, very intimidating. Hellen was too young in 1984, but she'd be great now. BGs are supposed to be beautiful with all those aristocratic genes in them. Hellen is still gorgeous in her 70s. Charlotte was gorgeous but now she looks sleepy.
The entire Dune saga boils down to women (the Bene Gesserit) wanting to control men and Leto Atrietes wanting men to have freedom (the Golden path and Siona).
In the fourth book . ( god emporer of Dune) we learn the ancestry. Jessica's mother is named. And it isn't mohiam. Frank my have considered it in early drafts of Dune, but that's not what he did ultimately. Like Tolkien and his alternate versions of galadriel. ( lost tales )
no. a sister does not use the force. she pitches her voice to speak directly to the subconscious mind of her target, bypassing conscious control. There is nothing in a Jedi's training that would allow them to resist the voice. I believe that no jedi would be a match for a reverend mother or sister.
If Jessica was a Harkonnen, why would they want an Atreties female to wed a Harkonnen male? Harkonnen civilization was one of the worst in human evolution.
all matriarchial leading groups last less than 50 years. Reason:? : "Men are at their best, indifferent to each otehr; women are born natural enemies" Arthur Schopenhauer
