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Something I love in this scene is that he can’t look at her when he speaks. It really shows how fractured their marriage is, that he can’t even look her in the eyes when he finally shows emotional vulnerability and honesty.
“I wonder if the sad I’d be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you.” Heartbreaking, one of the heavy-hitting lines and also one of the most iconic lines from any TV show IMO.
@@Upsallauniversity123 i don’t think Tom will win with this family. It’s a lose-lose being involved with this family. Shiv will find ways to use him for family benefit whether he stays or leaves. Now that the cruises document destruction is public, I can see Logan and shiv forcing Tom to take the fall. it’s another reason for Logan to sacrifice Tom. Shiv already proved she doesn’t care about Tom. She basically volunteered him to go to jail. As much as I want to see Tom succeed and be happy, I don’t think things will end up well for him. He’s too nice. Narcissistic families won’t hesitate to take advantage of kind people. Ending up hurt is the price for being involved with a family like this. That or he will divorce shiv and marry Greg. Whoops, I mean Gregory.
@@samtrotter7177 Nobody is nice in that wretched family. But some are less horrible than others I.E Tom or Greg. Greg being less horrible than Tom. But those two still find slimy ways to make us as an audience see them as somewhat deeply flawed people.
"I love you. I love this rock. Bye rock, you're dead. What does it mean?" is one of the most profound line about love I have heard in a TV show which applies to all relationships involving love. What does your love even mean without your actions to back it up? It's the same as loving a random piece of rock. Beautiful writing. This entire scene is golden.
You can see Shiv struggling to process what she's heard and trying to spin it but just coming to a loss at finally realizing the consequences of her actions. This show is full of brilliant acting
@@aaliyahmattel536 facts, the lack of sympathy shown towards shiv vs Kendall really reveals how real and present sexism is within our society. Shiv is judged more harshly than the others even when her brothers' have done much worse than her. The way that she's held to a higher standard just because she is a woman truly infuriates me!!!
@@cpr3422 It's the other way around, Shiv is just as entitled, disloyal and arrogant if not more so than her siblings but people are more lenient against her, outside of her continually kicking the puppy that is Tom.
@@levisosa2953 in the context of the show, I agree that shiv definitely gets more leniency, but in context of how the audience reacts to Shiv versus Kendall, just by these comments you can tell that people have much more empathy towards Kendall who killed a guy because he was drunk versus Shiv. Her brothers have done far worse things than she has yet the viewers don't show the same empathy towards her than towards her brothers. Also people freak out that she treats Tom bad and cheats on him, but nobody comments on how bad a father and husband Kendall was, how Connor is literally isolating Willa from the world to selfishly keep her to himself, and how Roman is neglectful of his partner as well and caused the death of hundreds of people by rushing the Japanese rocket launch. So to answer your question, yes I have watched the show.
You can see Tom's anger and pain, then Shiv trying her best to flip it in her mind and make herself out to be in the right, but can't. The writing and acting of this show is on a level all its own. It's simply incredible.
What I love about this show is the dialogue. It never sounds scripted. This is how real people talk - choppy sentences that fall off, random thoughts blurted out - and you feel like you are eavesdropping on a private conversation.
Part of that is the actors having a ton of control over their lines. If you read the shooting scripts, very few sentences are completely unaltered in the final cut. In this scene, Macfadyen improvised the closing line on-set.
It's very interesting that they phrased it as the opposite of flowery. Like Tom is being so earnest and sincere in his vulnerability here he doesn't care what words he uses as long as he gets his point across. "I wonder if I'd be less miserable without you than I'd be with you" is better prose but has far less of an emotional impact. The subtext of context and word choice. Masterful. BRABO BINCE.
I love Tom's dialogue in this scene. The sentences and phrases he uses are so awkward, which makes perfect sense, since he is finally expressing for the first time his unhappiness with Shiv. When you've been put down a lot, your attempt to come out of it is not going to be a well-crafted speech, but it doesn't make what he said less poignant.
@@moonlightfitz hahaha I was in a same shock :D yes, it's true. Actor who plays Tom in Succession is Mr Darcy! Uncomparable. Which makes me think how phenomenal actor he is.
Shiv's character is one of the most perfectly written depictions of a narcissist I've ever seen on screen. They got every one of her actions and lines to absolute perfectiom. How she gaslights Tom on a daily basis, how she wants different standards to apply to him but when he wants to sleep with someone else after she drops the 'open marriage' idea; she explains why it's bad when he does it but not when she does; even how she says to him 'it's very manipulative to bring up the bedroom talk' when she is the one belittling him . It's so mindblowingly accurate if you'ever been with a narc; and how they'll show just enough affection and 'love' to make you question that maybe they're not 100% toxic.
She's absolutely NOT a narcissist, lol. That's Logan. Stop trivializing this disorder by labeling anyone with ego and intemacy problems as a "narcissist".
This is one of the Tom's biggest dramatic moments, IMMEDIATELY followed by one of his biggest comedic moments (Logan's chicken). Thats why the show is great.
In this show, people rarely say what they really mean. They lie, they talk in hypotheticals, they make empty promises, etc. So when a character just opens up and says what's truly in their heart, it hits you like a truck.
I also love Shiv's line, "What are you saying?" right after he's said the most direct-to-the-point thing anyone has ever said on the show. The characters are all so used to out-verbal-jujitsu-ing each other that it completely throws them off-guard when someone says what they're really thinking...like they can't even process it.
The "I've seen you get fucked many times, but I've never seen Logan get fucked once" dialogue of Tom and Ken was another one. It was so surprising seeing a character telling the way it is. And Tom, by the way, was an outsider in the family who was seeking approval - seeing him being so honest like this says how much this family/company broke him on the inside.
Tom is one of those characters I get to like more as his character develops and reveals with time. From neutral in the beginning to symphatizing him becoming my favourite persona of the show. Here you can actually see how loyal he is, man with the depth behind the whole shelf of money and his constant need to fit and impress whole Roy family.
The delivery of the line at 2:10 is amazing and so real. Admitting you're unhappy to a partner is so hard and almost makes you feel guilty, I could see and hear that in Tom.
If you rewatch succession, you'll notice how the deeper Tom gets entrenched into this family, the more he loses of his actual self. He had this vibrant, funny persona now he is shadow of himself. Also, after reading a lot about the show from different critics, most of the people think that Shiv is a good guy - you know being that she's a woman and pro left. But she is in fact the most ruthless out of the three. She is probably most like Logan. On top of that she suffers from extreme narcissism, telling both Tom and her ex that she's above them, far better than what they deserve and stuff like that. Her constant cheating on Tom shows that she actually means it.
Many people liked shiv the most from the starting....but while watching I noticed that as soon as she was countered in a conversation with her siblings she just said "fuck you" or "fuck off" and left...I didn't like her for that
I don't think Shiv is the most ruthless, even when they had knives out for each other she was the one who was there for Kendall at his lowest giving him a hug, she also begged Logan in private not to sacrifice Tom. All the siblings are fairly equal in that regard, Kendall doesn't even show it towards his siblings but season 4 might be different. Shiv is just the absolute worst with showing herself as emotionally vulnerable, so Tom will never be a good fit without some drastic personality change. I think Shiv was hurt in a different way growing up than the others, she was the favourite but also given the least power and respect, so she acts like her dad without actually being able to be that ruthless unless Tom acts like a puppy. But there's this moment where she sees how Tom acts like with Greg and she is laughing and happy seeing that, because that's the more natural Tom that she loves but paradoxically refuses to let him be that way towards her.
Spaced92 I question shiv’s intentions when she begging Logan to spare Tom. Like yes obviously she doesn’t want Tom that to happen to Tom, but she views Tom so much more like a tool to use to her advantage than she does actually care for him. All throughout season she doesn’t show any sympathy or care towards Tom and the very real possibility he had of going to jail. Also, if Tom wasn’t spared she wouldn’t have been able to use him to get information on all the meeting she wasn’t apart of but he was. Tom was also willing to go along with anything shiv said up until the betrayal, so she probably felt that she could use him for info and to use him to do what she couldn’t. Ultimately she was betrayed but I don’t think she begging for him to be spared was really a loving act for her husband
Let's not put this all on shiv, we must acknowledge that toms lust for power and money is what made him sign up for shiv in the first place. And it plays a role in why he continues to accept the punishment. He could leave but he will be leaving his wealth and ambitions as well. He believes it is worth it.
I love the way Shiv delivers her line at 0:51. She still doesn't realize how serious this is, and she's just saying things in the hopes that Tom's mood will change and they can go on like nothing happened. She glaces over at Tom after she says it to see if it worked.
Yep she's a true 100% WASP. They captured what it's like being a WASP perfectly with Shiv, more than any other character on the show. Kendall tries. Even Roman tries. Shiv however cannot, she will not, express or discuss emotions because she has absolutely no idea how. So she scoffs, plays it off and stonewalls it instead of dealing with it. I know so, so many WASP's like that. Just absolutely devoid of any emotion, even with their partners, because they don't have an utter clue how to express as nobody did it with them as children as their parents are always off working or completely cold themselves. That's why Tom later on calls her broken when he's tried constantly to give her approval and fill her pot. The pot will never be filled because the void is too deep. She's broken. He isn't. All thanks to Logan and Caroline's total inability to love their children.
The writing on this show has me cackling in one moment and plunged into secondhand despair in the next. And it's a testament to the actors that they can connect those moments so seamlessly. The sly grin from Shiv at the start versus her eventual realization of the gravity of his unhappiness. The way Tom is trying so hard to dam his own feelings as if simple vulnerability were a weakness, such that it has no choice but to come out with the most devastating sincerity. One of the finest shows made. Deeply human, utterly wicked.
Shiv's expressions, fighting away tears, will always kill me. In that moment, if she had shown some vulnerability, the trajectory of this scene would be so different. But she tamped it down. Ugh!!!
@@randmnumber why? There was a close up to her face to show how sad she was when Tom said he was unhappy and she even told her dad to fire anyone but Tom
Doodoo Balls definitely abusive, for sure… I think she might really believe in this moment that she cares about Tom. Doesn’t mean she’ll treat him better, but I think she thinks it’s love. Maybe she doesn’t know what love is supposed to look like. Maybe she thinks this it?
@@Altair-El-Haddad lets just say things did not go as her plan and Tom came out as the winner, so in order to stay relevant she had to stick with Tom at the end.
I replayed this scene over and over. It summed up my 30 year marriage. The sadder I am with you is sadder than without. I divorced him a few months later. PS I’m much happier without him.
tom is the most complex and interesting character in the entire show. he really needs to leave shiv but i struggle to think he will because he's constantly insecure about his place in the company and in the family. if he leaves shiv where will that leave his status/professional life? he's kind of stuck. I'd love to see him get out of this awful marriage and be truly happy by the end of the series
The best scene of this series so far. Absolutely tremendous. These two are heading for a fiery, nasty conclusion because no one knows what love is on this show.
This is the most important moment of this whole series in my opinion. The line Tom delivers is just gut wrenching. What the most important part to me is the foreshadowing of Tom no longer letting everyone else in the family dictate his fate. Him stopping Shiv and saying “NO, I’ll talk to Logan”. It’s his game to play now. He’s no longer Shivs husband. He’s his own game piece on the chessboard.
Shiv is the kind of person who cannot accept that someone would leave her because of her actions. When Tom shows he is hurt she laughes it off at first thinking she is safe, but when he suggests he might take the chance of leaving her, she freaks out. Because she realises then that she might lose him, and it is his choice not hers.
I know this comment was before season 4. Wonder your thoughts on the balcony argument between Shiv and Tom? For me one of the best scenes ive seen in tv
his line about being with you is just...man. I had a relationship like that in my 20's. It was a poisonous relationship ultimately and thankfully we weren't married. We broke up and got back together so many times and finally I just had to say something like this to her. It was a terrible feeling, but ultimately it freed both of us and allowed us to find the right person.
I really relate to Tom in this scene because I've been in a relationship like this. My ex tried to make me be okay with a Polyamorous relationship. I tried to act like I was okay but I really wasn't. So I really understand how Tom is feeling here
"Polyamorous relationship" is an oxymoron in itself. It's fucked up how people try to rationalize and normalize this. It's good you don't have to deal with this anymore.
Tom is smart and I think he knows from the beginning that Shiv is manipulating and gaslighting him but he still hopes that that is not real her and that she will eventually start to love him.
Tom is the closest thing resembling a real person in the main cast of this show. Not a narcissist or a sociopath, a bit unhinged but that could be from being around his wife’s family. It won’t end well for him at all 😂😂
The sadness that Shiv felt is not from the fear of losing someone you love, it's just a fear of losing something you have. And she deserves way worse. In the season 2 episode 3, I realized the meaning of Tom for Shiv. She cheated the day she send her husband to a humiliation. And after her dad played with his pride, she just get the bonus from same dad. Even though Tom agreed to open relationship, he also thought they were at least partners. She just f*cked up him.
Tom is truly the Howard Hamlin of this show. He may be the only decent person there but he gets thrown to the side and Is shit on all the time. Best character fr
As a side note, confusion on the exclusivity of marriage (i.e. at the time of the wedding not knowing that a marriage can't be open) is grounds for annulment in many denominations.
I’m in a open relationship and what Shiv did was terrible. She’s never honest and upfront with Tom. She could’ve easily brought this forward at any point of their relationship. Wedding night is a complete lack of respect for Tom.
I love this scene. Even after two years, I still come back to it, whether it's when I have a fight with a loved one or when I'm feeling a bit sad. The writing in the show is so good, a mix of causal slang and everyday speaking with just these unforgettable lines. The sentence "I wonder if the sad I'd be without is less than the sad I get from being with you" hits really close to home. It really is hard to measure or know when the fighting and arguments gets to be too much and when you would be happier without them. When I think of my own relationships, I always change the sentence up with happier instead of sad. Would the lost of a loved one really make me happier? Thats harder to tell, but I am pretty sure I would be less sad.
@@BT-kc3ee and then she goes back to lying to him, ignoring him and trying to trick him into turning himself into the FBI in season 3. She’s fucking brutal and there’s no way around it. Almost as much as Logan
Tom in Season 1 and in the beginning of Season 2 came off as annoying and needy. Once you realize how isolated he is in the Roy family and even in his own marriage he comes out to the underdog and this scene is where he bites back. Then the immediate scene after where he confronts Logan and thanks him for the chicken. The acting in this show is top echelon. I really don't think there is a better cast of talented actors in any show EVER. Jeez even Stewie a side character plays his role magnificently. When this show ends it will become an empty void on television.
The only thing that made Shiv realized how much she fucked up was the idea that might be betrayed once again like her dad and mother betrayed her in the past.
