Critical Scholarship and Book of Abraham Historicity | Mormonism LIVE! 070

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Mormonism LIVE: 070: Critical Scholarship and Book of Abraham Historicity
RFM and Bill sit down once again with Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalfe to examine the problems with the Book of Abraham as a translation of an ancient document in a sacred text for Mormonism generally and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically. Dan and Brent share their scholarship and help us grasp some of the messiness around this issue.
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8 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 220

@JP-JustSayin 2 года назад

Mormonism live is a treasure ... the live chat is always a hoot ... and the rewatch value is also high. Dan and Brent are absolute legends... having them on together takes it to a whole other level. Great show guys ... we need more of these two if you can swing it.

@TheBackyardProfessor 2 года назад

BEST SHOW OF THE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everything about this was outrageously delightful!!!!!!!!!! That ending! OMG that ending!!!!! HOWLING LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Moksha-Raver 2 года назад

If that could be an ongoing feature it would double the size of your viewership.

@runwillt 2 года назад

Loved that open dialogue disagreement towards the end between Dan and Brent. True scholarship being discussed in a healthy way. It's also fun to not have all the answers and get to speculate based upon the scholarship (instead of speculating based upon belief).

@sookie.smooth Год назад

I loved the Joseph Smith cameo!

@schrecksekunde2118 Год назад

wonderful talk and people!

@joelugo1812 2 года назад

IMO, Comments that are displayed at the bottom of the screen are very annoying and takes away from the presentation.

@MichaelSmith-fq3pg 2 года назад

Is the presentation, or the materials presented, available to view anywhere?

@bradslc 2 года назад

I'm going to need to rewatch this one -- a few times. Very good episode!

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

Good?

@Shelama 2 года назад

Great program! Kinda feel sorry for Gee & Muhlestein, who should abandon BoA apologetic altogether and just go with the burning bosom and “I know that it’s true. Vogel and Metcalf are a gold mine. Robert Ritner (RIP) is another, and both his written work plus his long recorded interview on Mormon Stories are a treasure. How lucky we are for that interview before he died to add to Metcalf and Vogel. I split the difference between Vogel & Metcalf concerning the fraudulent vs. sincere Joseph Smith, that he was some of both and although pretty clear for some things which, not always. Even for his BoA - and for his own earlier sources for the BoA - I suspect he may have believed he really was channeling God. So maybe some “pious fraud” at work with the BoA, too.

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

Robert Ritner wasn't a very good person. It's not sad news when people like that die. Therefore, how are his written work and interviews on Mormon Stories a treasure?

@Shelama 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 - Because Ritner was the person far most capable of debunking BOA nonsense. And for any honest person even half-way familiar with the issues, he (and Dan Vogel and Metcalfe and others) thoroughly destroy Gee & Muhlstein and the false Mormon narrative about the BoA. As to whether Ritner was a good person or not, you wouldn't have clue and have nothing to contribute. No more than you do with the Gregerson nonsense. Thanks and good luck.

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

@@Shelama There are no issues. Joseph Smith never mistranslated a single thing. Joseph Smith just didn't render a translation/revelation concurring with the translation from that of the Egyptologists. One would have to be pretty highly unintelligent to have assumed that he was. As this would have to mean that the Book of Abraham, in order to be translated correctly, was supposed to concur with that of Egyptian mythology.

@Shelama 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 In one sense, anyway, Joseph Smith didn't "mistranslate" anything, that's true - _because he didn't even translate anything._ And he didn't receive anything by either revelation or inspiration. Nor through any "catalyst." Smith pretty clearly was just making stuff up. There's no good evidence or reason to believe otherwise. Least of all a burning bosom or some other so-called "personal revelation." You may not want Smith's Book of Abraham to comport with Egyptian mythology, but there's no saving grace in Smith just inventing his own pseudepigraphic mythology. You just as well believe in Mormon underwear and bakers' hats and little green aprons. You just as well believe in Noah's Flood and the Tower of Babel. From the very premise on up, the Book of Abraham is as preposterous as the Book of Mormon.

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

@@Shelama Paul Gregersen has thoroughly debunked the arrogant Egyptologists by presenting proper interpretation.

@scottvance74 2 года назад

We need to get away from allowing apologists to call people "critics". We should rather assume the title or "realist", "academic", or "scholar".

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

The dishonest people on the above video are critics.

@kennethd.9436 2 года назад

Looking forward to the next update! 😁

@brucejensen3700 2 года назад

Great episode! I don’t agree that the audience for the BoA was 2, or that Joseph didn’t intend to publish his work. Consider all of the members that donated the roughly $24,000 dollars to purchase the papyri and mummies. I believe they were excited to learn what was in the writings of Abraham and Joseph. Why would Joseph NOT publish it?

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

I don't either. In 1837, Woodruff was blessed that “I should visit COLUB & Preach to the spirits in Prision” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 3 Jan. 1837). On 12 December 1838, Woodruff mentioned “COLOB” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 12 Dec. 1838). This is before Joseph Smith dictated chapter 3 in 1842 in Nauvoo. Clearly the content of the GAEL was being discussed in Kirtland.

@kohlstrong 2 года назад

Is there a way to get a report from the RU-vid donations for tax purposes? I've avoided significant YT donations for that reason, and instead donated through the MD site.

@deskjockie4948 2 года назад

He forgot to mention Zip Zool, and zippidy do dah. It you didn't watch all the way through, you missed the best laugh of the year!

@TheBackyardProfessor 2 года назад

Yes,. watch to the very end even when its over, its not over. HILARIOUS!!!!!!!

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

Still IGNORING the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologists?

@Zelph_undying 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 lmao, the videos are bad enough, reading through his comments on his own videos is hilarious.

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

@@Zelph_undying How are his comments hilarious?

@Zelph_undying 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 “so it's not completely clear to a lot of people why JS is relating [Kolob] to JC, is it possible he wants us to use this code... By triangulating to another standard work...” Reminds me so much of the “Romney is going to be the next president, it's in the Bible code” people.

@SmokeShadow49311 2 года назад

Why was John Gee creepily stalking this steam? Was he supposed to refute/rebut what they were saying (or at least try to)? Very bizarre 🤔?

@MormonDiscussion 2 года назад

It was a joke. I was managing his images entrance and leaving

@andreadiamond7115 2 года назад

LMAO @ Petty Coat Junction 😂

@rychei5393 2 года назад

The restored Church was established in 1830... without apostles. Got it. They don't share THAT info with investigators.

@zackc3767 2 года назад

I didn't have any booze but I think I need to get drunk and rewatch this thing.

@KendraAndTheLaw 2 года назад

Me too. Except I had booze on the first watch.

@michaelconnors7668 2 года назад

I'm on Brent Metcalfe's side on this one. You never go wrong when you ascribe the worst motives to anyone's behavior.

@lilatueller 2 года назад

I think you mean best motives? I think it’s demonstrable that JS had delusions of grandeur, he wanted to be a prophet. He wanted to be beloved, revered, he wanted loyalty. He would lie and cheat and steal on order to get those things. That’s enough for me.

@RichardHolmes-ll8ii 3 месяца назад

Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretational understanding on translation.

@Moksha-Raver 2 года назад

When you mention leading people in Book of Abraham studies don't forget Paul Osborne.

@Moksha-Raver 2 года назад

Yeah, Mormonism Live really needs to have Osborne on the show to give us the straight dope regarding the facsimile characters, but also about finally pinpointing the geography of the Nephite story.

@TheBackyardProfessor 2 года назад

@@Moksha-Raver Osborne has really opened my eyes on a lot of things as well. Not sure if he will come on the show, but he is willing to share the information, which is 2nd best.

@Moksha-Raver 2 года назад

@@TheBackyardProfessor Maybe you, RFM, and Bill Reel can collectively talk him into it.

@geraldinesera8915 Год назад

Please provide a mailing address. I will not give credit card details over the internet.

@Michael-go8db 2 года назад

Drunk Brent kept it together pretty well but didn't know when to give up the mic. Vogel was so on point as usual. Gotta give the nod to Vogel in the assessment of Joseph's deliberate deception. Brent fighting for the position of no plates is completely nonsensical while also ascribing to the idea of unconscious deception. When in doubt just stick with Vogel for gods sake he's got this covered inside and out. Joseph's morals are written right into the BOM. The ends justify the means if it brings people to Christ. It's right in his very autobiographical book. Was Joseph sincere, yes. Did he consciously deceive, there is no doubt. Has time proven Joseph wrong, unquestionably.

@truth.speaker 2 года назад

40:04 has Brent been drinking or am I misunderstanding his speech?

@scottvance74 2 года назад

Brent has spoken elsewhere about having a drinking problem after leaving the church and having to be careful with alcohol.

@truth.speaker 2 года назад

@@scottvance74 we all have our struggles. Let's hope he finds a way out

@scottvance74 2 года назад

@@truth.speaker Understood. I'm not trying to cast shade. He's been pretty open about it and I understand that he's doing well, just trying to clarify. I believe that this may be in the relatively distant past (90s?).

@truth.speaker 2 года назад

@@scottvance74 yep. I know. I guess it's just surprising seeing a guest who appears drunk on the show. Dan did really well

@brucejensen3700 2 года назад

Read and ponder D&C 134:12 to determine if Joseph was a racist. This clearly isn’t the Lord speaking!

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

It is unknown how much JS was involved with this statement, but it was in preparation for a return to Jackson County, where the Mormons had been expelled for having what appeared to the old settlers to be abolitionist tendencies.

@brucejensen3700 2 года назад

@@danvogel6802 How would JS not have been involved with section 134?

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

Joseph Smith was an abolitionist.

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 Smith wrote an anti-abolitionist letter to Oliver Cowdery to be published in the Messenger and Advocate, which appeared in the April 1836 issue along with two other articles on the same topic.

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

@@brucejensen3700 Joseph Smith was out of town when at a meeting W. W. Phelps read “a chapter of Rules for Marriage among the saints” and Cowdery read “an instrument containing certain principles or items upon laws in general. & church government,” both of which were accepted and ordered to be printed in the Doctrine and Covenants. The authorship of the two documents is not stated in the minutes, but it has generally been attributed to Cowdery.

@geraldinesera8915 Год назад

No displeasure intended, but the first scholar spokesperson, truly has limited capacity to speak to a scriptural based audience, and may be better understood by peer scholars. Many of us review your podcasts on their cell phones, and BROWN backgrounded written materials are not readily readable for us. Id say more to enhance your podcast here, but as a retired, senior, scriptorian, the presentation jumps around in its focus often.

@joecamel6196 Год назад

Stop examining the context. The content or context is not the subject. The subject is Joseph Smith's claim that he translated the txt. of the papyrus.

@KidFreshie 2 года назад

Do yourself a favor and put this on 2x speed. Wow do these guys speak slowly.

@elainechester4756 Год назад

Is Brent Metcalf’s voice annoying anyone else??!!

@ajadamsv9208 2 года назад

I have donated a couple times. I’m not donating because of the content choices the past few episodes. I enjoy the episodes pertaining to the history of the church and the lies made by the current leadership. Not interested in episodes pertaining to woke political issues. Just my opinion and feed back.

@paulgregersen3570 Год назад

No one honest should not have donated a dime to the lies about the book of Abraham as if the church was lying about church history. These people have taken you for a fool. Smith got the translation of the book of Abraham a hundred percent correct. Link UTube video now! ( BOA ep 16 ) by Gregersen to get there

@ajadamsv9208 Год назад

@@paulgregersen3570 OMG you are a fool! The most obvious failure and most provable is JSs translation of what he called the Book of Abraham. Don’t argue from a point of weakness thinking you’ll convince anyone of that stupidity.

@stelladavis7832 2 года назад

This was hard to follow along with not a fan of this show

@MormonDiscussion 2 года назад

Appreciate the comment. Were you speaking about this specific episode in particular in regards to not being a fan talking about the show in general (Mormonism live)?

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''. The first video of a series debunking the lies from the ones on the above video.

@kentthalman4459 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 the Mormonism Live Kinderhook plate session completely debunks Paul's theories.

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

@@kentthalman4459 How does the session debunk Paul's theories?

@kentthalman4459 2 года назад

@@richardholmes5676 JS uses the GAEL as the authoritative source to translate a character off the Kinderhook plates which were supposedly also written in Egyptian. Paul doesn't believe that JS translated any of what you call cartoon characters. Sorry, but JS's translation of this character using the GAEL leaves zero room for Paul's musings. Zero.

@richarddick2955 2 года назад

You guys are no different than the BYU SCHOLARS YOU CRITICIZE! I'm telling everyone about this!

@richarddick2955 2 года назад

Did you guys erase Gregersens comments because you fear his videos? I don't see him posted below anymore? Dan's response to a callers sincere question about Gregersen's videos was very condescending. Placing himself above any sincere callers question by judging it by condescending superior scholarship is sickening. If Gregersen's videos have music it certainly doesn't bother me. I thought his ideas and timelines with prophecy were extremely clear and correct. If you guys are only concerned with scholarly style presentations instead of another's IMPORTANT message you are no better than anyone you criticize. To dismiss Paul or the thousands who have viewed his videos is a sign of your pomp's little club and not truth seekers. Shame on you.

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

So Gregersen who thinks he is smarter than all the Egyptologists and Mormon apologists is not pompous. Got it. Look, I listened to his presentation and concluded it was not serious scholarship. As it turns out, no scholar that I know of takes him seriously. That's a problem you need to deal with.

@richarddick2955 2 года назад

@@danvogel6802 You obviously have been out of the church a very long time. I bought Gregersen's book at BYU bookstore years ago after a doctor a Blaine Cocks taught from Gregersen's book right in a Sunday school class. He even recommended it as a valid theory. Dr. Meldrum a well known church scholar at ISU has Gregersen's book right in the center of his book shelf in his office. He told me he never studies anything that lacks any real evidence. I think the BYU scholars all smoke the very same pipe as Dr. Gee, they say nothing about anyone outside their group that hasn't first arisen from their tight little club. The fact that Gregersen thinks out side that scholarly box doesn't bother me at all. I think Dr. Ritner was the wrong person to explain the Book of Abraham. Gregersen has convinced me that Ritner got the names of the 4 sons of Horus wrong, in his video 13 where he quite convincingly proves that even you yourself got it wrong. The fact that Gregersen alone deals with the textual wording of the Abraham text actually impresses me. No scholar has considered chapter 3 where Abraham declares that God told him to teach the Egyptians only about Abrahams posterity as defined by that astronomy. How did the scholars miss that? Or did it not fit your own narrow theories? There never was any need for Smith to translate Osiris or Horas nor any Egyptian Gods from any ancient text. A true prophet might therefore translate a false gospel about false gods into reverse by converting back to the truth again, they would translate what the Egyptians got wrong back to the Gospel of Abrahams perspectives, and not Osiris. Look at the books own subject matter its all about Abrahams perspectives and not about Egyptian gods, unless it pertains to Abraham or Israel. The same way Joseph Smith translated the Bible. It was never a scholarly style of translation from word to word. It was always about restoring the true gospel only.

@TheBackyardProfessor 2 года назад

@@danvogel6802 I'm not convinced that Gregerson is not actually Dr. Peterson incognito....GRIN!

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

@@danvogel6802 Do you seriously believe you're right?

@richardholmes5676 2 года назад

Notice how Dan Vogel wont admit that Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists.