The ultimate cycling podcast hosted by Kārlis Ozols and Gabriel Stróżyk, the minds behind the popular CyclingGraphs and Naichaca Twitter accounts. Dive deep into the world of watts as we analyze climbing performances, break down w/kg data, and discuss the latest in cycling metrics. Join us for expert insights, detailed performance reviews, and a passion for all things cycling.
To the guys doubting the performance of Pog and Jonas-you are looking in the wrong direction. The most sus of them all was Jorgenson. There is no way in hell a clean guy that size could climb that well. No way. And also that Abrahamsen kid who is built like a track cyclist and still wore the polka dot for quite a few days. I hope to God he is clean for he is Sonny Colbrelli 2.0
The creator of these charts should use contrasting colours for the different riders. Three of them are almost the same. What are the blue dots? I don't see them in the legend
Blue dots are other riders. Yes, agree with red dots. Wanted to make them in same colour as they are from the 2020s and in the article you can click on them and see them but not the best for youtube. Needed to be quick lanternerouge.com/2024/07/14/greatest-climbing-performances-of-all-time-on-plateau-de-beille-tour-de-france-2024-stage-15/
Its sports what pays off is pedigree and oreoaration. Youre not a tadej fan I et it I heard you say jay vine and sjelmos were better climbers ....your words. Tadej been racing sincebefore 10 he eides uncycleshes a prodigy. Jonas is cut from cloth of lance 2.9, froome, high cadence,high knees,spinning gear tadej wins on every surface everyfinish short ofschediprijs. He an athlete on a bike hes best ive ever seen. Its a myth to "gwo into tour' its actually a way to tell who actually does endurance cycling not just pleasure efforts inscenery. Thereis a ratio aftera training block thatbbpdy needs to heal muscles than loosen and become supplebefore you get benefits. Its why people use tour to train for olympics nobody strengthens over tour its insane idea. Eveeryone fatigues on slidinig scale. Idea jonas is week 3 mastyer is delusion. There are big mountains in week3 and he likes those but lets live in reality. He can win but utwill tajke badluck, illness, crash he isnt outracing tadej . Every year there is a favorte for a reason uninterupted trainingand showing form before tour. Everyone weakens in tour its on sliding scale based on peraration and attrition. Last year tadej had injury so held strong but week 3 faded in his posture, powwer, on his face. Same happening to jonas this year its sports science not rocket sciemce no matter what you guys want to think. Heres what hapened today its longest climbs after hard dayall tour so nowheree to hide the good condition or cream rises jonas was empty and tadej had poser. Long climbs, heat, JV having massive team to have kuss with JV and usually wout up road to offer reprive is difference for jonas. Hes never climbed alone from close to foot of climb hes lie paret-peintre except paret peintre face lookslikea person jonas lookssunken and pow. Not making aciussations but obvious observatoins. You guys are surprised and thinkingnnastiest things about tadejs erformnace one guy wins everything his training for this is a hell of a lot more that tirreno and tadej had matteo and full out trying to win tour jonas as leadoutd that he launched from and tempo to top. What did you expect? Been watching for 35 years someguys like stefan schumacer eyes bulging are freajs but this is cycling when you sit on doms breaking climbing records and then acceleerate from them you will break climbing records. Tadej wins everythnig and while hes lost a few ks he hasnt had metamorphisis like lance, levi, even jonas from 2021 is insane you cant carry that leanness and do those efforts on ketones he looks like UFCfighter cutting wieght for fight before the most intense enurance effort in spotrs. Any jonas fans should be pointing the thumb not the finger if anything. I dont care either way but ive been in same crahses as jonas one on each side actually and when your body heals it doesnt stay lean you have to eat to heal. His body chemistry is absurd nevermind performance for someone supposedly shoulder injury I wont even entertain lung injury. 35 years of watching this and read of all the others be pouliidor, ocana, coppi, bartali, merkcx, gimondi, van looy, devlaemick etc. Saw hinault, fignon, hererra, lemond. Enjoy race keep observing and formnig your own opinion its best way by far Tadej was classiest rider since2019 amgen, slovenia ITT, Veulta podium with 3 stages against primoz and valverede. Nobody has ever had such a postureon a bike facthe messes around on unicycle for fun he lives on bike hes just throw bck like merckx and de vlaemick where he wants to win everything in front of all sorts of fans ratherthan peak eery year for one race thats not sport thats an exibition. Give it time you guys dont realize how lucky you are no two have ridden at this level. Bartali and coppi were teammates then it was done by country. Tadej is the complete rider reminds meof coppi hes reclusive but rides like a romantic and will retire without caring at all about recordshe will retire when its not fun. He gives his trophies to his parents for CS. Lance was a triathlete not even [ure bike rider nevernmind cliimber I grew up in 90s he finished 2 out of 5 tours he attempted thats absurd. Tadej won l'avenir at 17 in 2017 hes always been best and podiumed vuekta 2019. You really need to get these stats and accomplishments down before you embelish them for some "alien effect"
You guys should mention this is perfect scenaroi Jorgenson led out at full pace till empty then jonas full to empty thentadej full it was a 3 man ITT. Been watching since 89fella tempo iseverything because its 40minute climb they never let temponrleent and tadej is greates ever. Lance was triathlete who switched never a climber just uised drugs to get lean enough so that power to weight was massive and lungs werent issue full of epo. Thisbis very different era. Every doper Ive seen since 80were recluses and didnt have smiles or genuiine answersbecause theyere cheating and were defensive veause they ere guilty. Its Moto pacing by best vyvlists condition and power to weight wise weve ever seen. Dopers in my lifetime hide away until theycan race the one that makes their areer le tour. Tadej races all over calendar, all over world, amgen california, UAE, Oman, all 3 grand tours hes won or podiuimed, gravel, cobbles, MSR and sprinting you heard jonas saying gravel has no place in tour when race started on it. Appreciate Tadej I commented here oncebefore couple years ago when you tried sayinig sjelmose, remco would all surpasse tadej and Jonas was another galazy. Guy who beats best rouleurs, puncheurs, he beats VDP on gravel, beats wout and VDP on flanders, he will win Roubaix and Politt will likely too. Keep withbyour hypotheticals boys Tadejis greatest cyclist ever with Merckx, gimondi, anquetil, bobet, maertans, an looy, devlaemick, hinault. You name it hes the best. Appreciate it guys I watched indurain dominate and that why pantani was so celelbrated he hit out and troubled the guywho never attacked and dragged back to bridge and crush in ITT. For those who dont know why some boo jonas whih is disgraceful jonas is a champion but he does same just brudges and discourages tadejs attacks except not aiming for 1hr ITT hes aiminig for high altitude alp/ Thatsthe booing same froome got forsame tactics against contador or whoever. Ventoux, axe-3-domains were a couple atatcks but you get it. Also like froome with porte etc jonas doesnt attack from bas or anything with panache hes had owrlds class doms who do damage and he rides away not races despite it being a race a know but you have to get it. Enjoy rest of tour everyyearthere ius a favorite beased on prep, results, and health. Idea Jonjas would grow in to week 3 is delusion its tour they cant even rest after stage they gave to cool down. There is a ration needed for after any training block for your muscles to heal and loosen and become supple again and that never appen ins a GT its just attrition eeryone tires oin slidnig scal which is why UAEmade it as hardas possible knowing he had best prep and longer it goes more jonas is on empty we way before Tadej. Hes 25 hes still lossing fast twitch muscle and gaining slow twootch he will get better oin long clinbs. Like 1oometerin track to 15000 meters. Its always been this way guys. Enjoy
As a sidenote, regarding performance assistance, what was that Bahrain guy on a few years ago that turned him into the worlds best climber for a couple of days?
How can this be a trendline when all points are above the trendline, it should be a fit thorough all points , so average of all points, or what is the pink curve?
There was a great Jesse Coyle video about hemoglobin/blood. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TWfwJGORWDM.html The biggest performance gain is better blood values and higher volume. There are legal ways like high altitude camps/tents, heat training etc and illegal like EPO or other banned/new products that produce red blood cells. But they can't go as high as in the 90s when there were no limits. Anything else doesn't help that much for climbing performance because the weight is important and muscle mass is not helping. Clean diet, good sleep and very low body fat are the best performance enhancers besides blood.
@@barbarap9452 doubt. there is no way to hide a motor in tour de france especially if you win on a mountain stage. and then jonas/pog/remco all would need to ride motors
Pogi has still not uploaded his ride, is he pissed at all the commentators analyzing his watts etc ? I know he hides the watts but anyway. Remco now the KOM owner on strava, as Jonas also not uploaded. For comparison, Abrahamsen did 307 watts, yes he posts his watts, and that made him go up in 1.04, so about 21.30 behind Remco. At 78 kilos he would be around 4 watts/kilo :-)...
Most of these data (if not all) are estimates based on rider & bike weight, gradient, distance, time etc. Hence the "e" in front of the W in the chart.
Wow! What's the new trick? People have been talking about suspicious performances for the past three years, now top three riders beat a legendary climber who was also doped. So what's the new trick? Is the stuff about CO breathing true?
This just proves that - if Jonas and Pogi were on the same team - every single record would be broken. We are so lucky to be able to witness two of the best of all time competing
If Tadej is the best Grand Tour rider, he should by now have distancing Jonas by 10 or even 20 Minutes. Jonas crash was so hard, that he should not be able to follow Tadej or only loose 1 minutes, if those are the best numbers ever and Tadej is the best rider. That is impossible. Its unheard of in any sport, inkluding cycling, that a guy with that kind of injurys coems back only 2,5 month later into a gran tour and is the secound best rider and still close enough in GC, after the dominent rider tryed everything to win all stages. So Tadej can not be the best Grand Tour rider.
It is actually not unheard of. I mean Contador won Vuelta 2014 with 10 days of pain free training and about 3 weeks total training before the race after being out for multiple weeks with a broken shin or kneecap i cant remember exactly anymore.
@@WattPolice Yes, that was his shinbone. But ist a huge differnce. He was able to ride for 20 km more and also competed in the vuelta, witch is not the Tour, and also against guys like Froome who were also out of order. But in the end, also that was a miraculous healing, but not comparable to this situation.
At 5.5 kilometers remaining JV try to accelerate to drop TP and look back if he had little gap, then TP knows that JV needs little recovery from that acceleration then TP goes on an attack again. I think TDF is finish 70-75%. As long as no crash , bonking or sickness TP will earn his 3rd TDF win.💪💪💪
They are taking something to To booster there performance.. It is not possible to do the jiro de italia and tour de France winning in the same Year... Without chemicals... And almost ride the bike of as fast like nobody did before. Especially in the pyramids... It's not possibl.. What they all take some stuff like the Olympics like Tennis player like soccer player, they're all do and you know what?Why not
Can someone please calculate the percentage of improvement between the best level of Pogačar before 2024 and this performance? The best 2023 performance was arguably Puy de dome - 6,5 w/kg for 35:11 while this one is 6,98 w/kg for 39:50, but with more kilojouls in the legs. Someone do the math please
Assuming Pogi is 100% clean; how fast would he be on the Ferrari program? Of course, everyone responds differently, but if you assume a typical response, then Pogis expected performance on a proper doping program would be well beyond what is considered to be physiologically possible. This obviously raises doubts as to his status. I know he is a physiological freak, well into the 6th SD in terms of cardiovascular performance, but this performance is still unbelievable.
It's impossible to compare because there is 25 years of sports science and marginal gains (plus some really big ones like modern sports nutrition) between those eras. Put Pogi on a 90s bike, with baggy jersey, water and baguettes and 60% hematocrit and he would be a lot slower than he is today. The Ferrari program is stone age tech compared to how top athletes train and prepare today, clean or not. And there is no smoking gun. In the 90s everyone knew.
The question is if it is possible to get your blood to work as well without EPO as it would with EPO. I know they did an experiment in my country, with two ex-cyclists that were on a similar level. One got EPO and the other not. The difference in performance was such that the EPO guy could ride the other guy straight off his wheel on the flats. But one could argue that none of them were at peak performance before one getting EPO. If your hematocrit and VO2max already is skyhigh from altitude training and other legal boosters like training correctly over many years, would epo then help ? Open question.
Tbh the time difference in the first km is not that big compared to Pantani's time. After Jonas attack they started making up time super fast compared to Pantani, who was also solo and all out at that point. These guys were just way better
@timliscum2861 I couldn't even tell you what country Pog is from. I am interested in performance analysis though. I crunched his number from stage 14 record climb, and based on what I could find of his VO2 max online, he rode at 95% of it for 27 minutes which was eyebrow raising already. and then to back it up with this effort the next day? I'm confident to say it was juicey performance
@@steinanderson9849 and he lost the last 2 tour de Frances to Vingegaard.. imagine how bad he must be doping right? so you saying that world records dont ever get broken or so you just pop into an event and start throwing out back of the napkin calls and come to a conclusion thats someone doping when you dont even know where the guy is from or any of his history? Of course you must know that he and all the winners have successfully evaded the daily and yearly drug testing.. because .. hey .. he must be doping... there's an emoji made especially for you and I found it.. 🤡 and please share a link of the VO2 max test results you have on him to back up your conclusion
11:20 to 12:30 was great. 'Well, I don't have a house.' The GOAT performance, no question. However I do think there was something of a perfect storm with Jonas pacing absolutely full gas, on an absurd level, for 13 mins. Maybe the other all-time performances could have been even better if there was an opponent in the race on a similar level who was incentivised to be on the front like Jonas. In that way it is undeniable these two dare each other to greater heights. A pleasure to witness.
Yeah, if anything this climb shows how approximate any attempt to compare performances is. (Of course, not to speak of comparing between historical performances). Pogi is in his best shape and got a perfect lead-out from JV to smash it. Epic from both (and remco!)
Yeah, Jorgenson and Vingegaard did a pretty decent lead out. Apart from the toughness of the stage and the possible headwind I don't think we have seen much better conditions for setting a record like this. I watched the stage in 1998 btw and Ullrich punctured just before the climb so no one really paced the first part. Not that Pantani could have come close to Pogi but with better pacing and modern gels he would have been a lot faster anyway.
Why is pantanis time considered better than Riis, when his had quite a big gap on heutacam watts down to pantanis alpe dhuez. Bjarne Riis did the same watts as pogi but for 4 minute less.
Difference in percentage to Armstrong is 13.47%. All weather and stage conditions against Pogacar. Bike and equipment is 3.5% in favour of Pogacar (kit+bike cda is lower, equal weight, lower crr). Is Pogacar seriously 10% better than Armstrong? He is doing something we don't know about. This is not normal training + nutrition. Armstrong already had amazing training and nutrition + all the other stuff I don't want to mention
I'm afraid your statement regarding fueling isnt accurate, here's what cgpt says During Lance Armstrong's peak cycling days, athletes typically consumed around 60-90 grams of carbohydrates per hour during races. This was based on the understanding of the time regarding how much the body could efficiently process. Today, with advances in sports nutrition, cyclists might consume slightly more, around 90-120 grams of carbohydrates per hour. Modern research has shown that with the right mix of glucose and fructose, the body can handle higher carbohydrate intake more efficiently, enhancing endurance and performance.
The difference in performance due to modern fueling strategies can be significant, especially in a demanding stage like a 200km ride with 4500m of elevation. Proper fueling helps maintain energy levels, delay fatigue, and enhance recovery. While it's difficult to quantify the exact difference in time, several studies suggest that optimal fueling can improve performance by 2-5%. For a stage of this difficulty, assuming an elite cyclist finishes it in approximately 6-7 hours, the improved fueling strategies could potentially shave off 7 to 20 minutes, depending on individual response and other variables like weather conditions and race dynamics. This is a rough estimate, but it illustrates the potential impact of modern nutrition.
@@DaM.1 I don't know all the inner workings, but it's a sum of different small or not so small things that stack up. Why only compare single riders? Might also want to take a look at the while team. Surely a whole team with better nutrition, training and tech will make a big difference. (in stage time, but also in power left for any final climbs or finishes)
Jonas was slower than Pogacar by just over a minute. After a hard crash at the Giro, is it possible for someone to achieve a result of 40 minutes? Medicine is a miracle, but I don't want to mention that 40 minutes after such an injury might be suspicious.
the interesting and surprising thing is that pogi did shy of 7 watt/kg on pas the peyrol and perthus on 10-15' climbs, few days after 6.85 for 27' or so and than next day 7 for 40'. there is no substance that in this acute period can boost performance in such way so wtf with pogi's physiology hahah
what are you saying? your logic is flawed, he couldve had that form the days before without us knowing about it, it didnt "just boost over that acute period" 🤦🏼
@@welanduzfullo8496 yeah but the day before he went all out on Plat d'Adet and did 0.15 w/kg less on a effort which was shorter. The power/duration relationship would suggests that for the duration of plat d'adet, with the effort of plateau de beille as comparison, he could have gone even faster.
@@paologiambersio how do you know he went all out, you are making a thousand assumptions with that statement alone, he just didnt ride the watts, doesnt mean he could not have ...
yup and even a little bit more watts, and btw he did close to same yesterday for 29 minutes. The juice is good this year. 8 % improvement since last year for pogi personally, never shown anything close to this level before. And he did not look wasted at the end.
Jonas was slower than Pogacar by just over a minute. After a hard crash at the Giro, is it possible for someone to achieve a result of 40 minutes? Medicine is a miracle, but I don't want to mention that 40 minutes after such an injury might be suspicious.
not really considering Pantani did it 25 years ago and the Top 3 today beat Pantani.. A lot of technology, training, nutrition, recovery and so has improved dramatically..
Im sorry pogi has no buisness beating almost all the doped performances, I think the only one ever who did a better result was Bjarne Riis, there is possible arguement pantani also but pogi has no buisness beating these watts. I lost faith now. People have been talking about Jonas Doping, he was still on the edge of what I could believe in. This performance of pogacar is about 5% better than his best ever and more like close to 10% on his normal level of climbing when he still goes for it. He has never all the former years shown anything close to this level. Its like a sprinter in 100 m suddenly improves with half a second like if usuain bolt suddenly did a 9,1 sprint in the the later part of his career.
The biggest surprise for me is that Jonas was second today and second in GC. That if you have any understanding of a punctered long injury and recovery it needs. If Tadej does not win the tour this year with this UAE team vs this Visma team then either did they did something strategically very wrong or Jonas is superhuman
Insane performance that blew away the field, right up there with Jonas's time trial performance last year! Visma's domestiques should have emptied the tank right before the steep part of the final climb, setting up a Jonas attack, but perhaps Jonas just doesn't have the legs this year after the crash recovery.
Agreed that Pog has made incredible gains. But I'm amazed at how he was he able to make so much improvement. I saw an interview of him last year saying something to the effect of that as he's getting older, gains and improvements are much harder to come by as compared to the previous years. But based on his stage 14 performance and the time trial for which he was only 10 seconds behind Remco, he's on a totally different level than he was in the past 2 years.
